Is there a D20 Dark Ages book available?

[A2Z]

Preferably one that's well done. I'm interested in starting a fantasy earth campaign set in the 8th-9th century. So far I've got the old 2E green books (Charlemagne's Paladin's and Vikings Central Europe and Scandinavia respectively) and two Dragon articles (Red Sails for Eastern Europe and the old 2E Dark Ages article for the British Isles) to go on. However I'm looking for something that may be more comprehensive. Any ideas?

 

[Crothian]

There is the Medieval Player's Manual by Green Ronin

 

[Desdichado]

Presumably d20 Past would cover this as well.

I guess it depends on what your vision of the Dark Ages really is. To a lot of people, D&D already is d20 Dark Ages. :\

 

[A2Z]

Presumably d20 Past would cover this as well.

I guess it depends on what your vision of the Dark Ages really is. To a lot of people, D&D already is d20 Dark Ages. :\

Well more specifically I'm looking for a source book covering 5th-10th century Europe. From the fall of Rome to the Norman conquest of Britain, both Western and Eastern Europe preferably. Green Ronin's Medieval Player's Manual covers the wrong era. And since I'm more interested in the political and social climate of the period then game mechanics won't really be of much use to me.

Then again maybe I'm going about the the wrong way. Can anyone recommend any good history books that cover those centuries?

 

[Desdichado]

I can recommend some good regional history books, but I can't think of any that are specifically "all of Europe". There's a lot of interesting stuff going on, though, but I've picked it up over years and who knows how many books. In Search of the Dark Ages by Michael Wood isn't bad, but it's a bit too Anglo-centric for your purposes, I'd bet.

On the other hand, I'd be willing to be there's a GURPS book that does a decent job of covering the era. In fact, ...searching, searching... well, actually there's not. You've got GURPS Camelot that covers a lot of Dark Age Britain vs. the encroaching Saxon kingdoms, you've got GURPS Middle Ages 1 (which starts in the right era, but which goes too far), GURPS Vikings, and GURPS Russia (which focuses on Medieval Russia, not modern Russia.)

 

[diaglo]

i had a DM, Mike Nancarrow, in the last 4 years that set his campaign during this time frame.

worked rather well. until the campaign had to break up due to layoffs and such in the Real World.

we were in England after the fall of the Romans.. although, there still was alot of Roman influence. the Roman roads were used and their old buildings were ruins to explore.

the Celts in Gaul and their priests... were getting ready to invade... whereas the Celts around us were heavily influenced by druidic magic. which led to tension and possible war.

 

[Galethorn]

I guess it depends on what your vision of the Dark Ages really is. To a lot of people, D&D already is d20 Dark Ages. :\

No! Don't say that! it's not! It really isn't!

Unless you get rid of rapiers, any sort of plate armor, crossbows, most polearms, the 'everybody but barbarians' level of literacy, and the existance of large, contiguous nations under one ruler as the norm, it's D20 High Middle Ages.

To reitterate, I will give a brief definition of the Dark Ages in europe...

The European historical period from about A.D. 476 to about 1000

That was from the fall of the roman empire to the rise of the post-charlemagne nations. Before that period, the romans were still a major force for 'advancement', with their roads, aquaducts, and so on. After that period, modern social structures began taking root, and they exist to this day, including the whole concept of corporations (which called guilds at the time...).

Between those two times of relative advancement, there was a sharp decline in written records, and the political climate was ever-changing and the feudal system only had three layers (kings, retainers, everybody else). Afterwards, of course, we had things like the uniting of the britons under their norman rulers, the unification of germany as the Holy Roman Empire, and so on.

So, to say D&D, with its 15th-century technology (not to mention magic...) and social assumptions in most settings (guilds, a many-tiered feudal system, serfs outnumbering freemen, etc.) couldn't possibly be Dark Ages D20, and any such notion is based on either incomplete or incorrect information.

But, then again, real historians don't even call that period 'the Dark Ages' any more; it's usually known as the 'early christian period in western europe' or something similar, with the early (400s-500s) in the germanic and scandinavian regions known as the 'Migration Period'...

Oh yeah, and D&D has elves/dwarves/gnomes, pantheistic/polytheistic religion, very pervasive magic, and a (pretty much, except at the lowest layers) all-coinage economy. And an adventurer-class of society; can't forget that.

Yep, so D&D, as written, is not a Dark Ages system. In fact, it's closest to early renaissance, come to think of it.

 

[Desdichado]

Yeah, and the Alea Iacta story hour is a great resource too, although that's actually set a little bit earlier. Bernard Cornwall's Warlord Trilogy is a great fiction resource for Dark Ages England during the time of the "historical" King Arthur; Celtic nations with a gloss of Romanization over top fighting off Saxon invaders and the like.

The feel of a game in the east will be very different, though. Although the Western Roman empire came crashing down, the Byzantine Empire; essentially an evolved version of the Eastern Roman Empire, stayed strong for a long time, and you'd have all kinds of various Turkic incursions to fight off, you'd have historical characters like Vlad Dracula, you'd have the formation of the Russian Empire, starting with Norse/Slavic settlements like Kiev and Novgorod under Svyetislav all the way to truly medieval Emperors and the like. You'd have the spread of the West Slavs during this time to form the medieval nations like Poland, Behemia, and others. Depending on when and where you set it, you even get late Sassanian Persians, Muslim conquests, or even the start of Mongol invasions.

It's really a big, broad topic to cover the "Dark Ages" in the east.

 

[Desdichado]

Yep, so D&D, as written, is not a Dark Ages system. In fact, it's closest to early renaissance, come to think of it.

You're not telling me anything new. All I said was "I guess it depends on what your vision of the Dark Ages really is. To a lot of people, D&D already is d20 Dark Ages." You didn't say anything about that really.

 

[Galethorn]

My post was pointed at 'a lot of people' rather than you; it's obvious now that I didn't really make that very clear. Anyway, I guess what I was saying is that (despite everything I say about myself not being arrogant or confrontational), the view of D&D as D20 Dark Ages is wrong.

Sure, it's a contrary position (considering how many people think of unwashed peasants being opressed by knights in full plate when the term Dark Ages is thrown out), and it's not nice to call an opinion wrong, but no incarnation of (not heavily houseruled) D&D I've ever seen has been in a setting that could be equated to the Dark Ages!

Oh well, I guess I hum loudly and think of saxons whenever somebody starts talking about FR or Greyhawk as being a Dark Ages setting...


On a related note, my fervor might partially be explained by the fact that I'm working on an 'alternate europe' setting (different geography but similar climate, similar cultures, overall, that look different from any specific 'real' culture when viewed up close). Of course, the technological and social situation would somewhere in the 8-9th century range if you compared it to 'real europe'. Anyway, I've done a lot of research, and the differences between the Dark Ages and the Middle Ages have become quite apparent to me, so the thought of D&D with its full plate and rapiers and crossbows as a 'dark ages' setting makes the lawful-informative loremaster inside me cringe...