Until you lose the scrap piece of paper.
Minimally, a word processor or spreadsheet is often desirable.
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I'm back - sort of
- Thread starter Cryndo
- Start date
Until you lose the scrap piece of paper.
Minimally, a word processor or spreadsheet is often desirable.
I agree with you to a point. Assuming they do release a functional version of VTT, every app that was promised will be delivered with the exception of the character visualizer. To be honest, I feel as you do about the Visualizer - I could care less. I'm sure there was (is?) some segment of the 4E population that's saddened by that, but I'm not personally.
However, I am bothered by not having access to a viable VTT until mid 2011 at the earliest. Some of us believed Wizards when they said that it would be released shortly after 4E. I'm angry that the CB was changed from the offline platform to the online one. I feel like I'm banging my head against the wall trying to get you to understand this. It's not the fact that WOTC finally does release the apps they said they would unlike with 3E, it's the fact that just like with 3E, the don't DO WHAT THEY SAY THEY'RE GOING TO DO.
Dannager
First Post
I think it's totally fine to get upset with them over missed deadlines and feature changes. Bear in mind, however, that we're talking about a software company. If you follow game development, you know that delays are more or less par for the course, as is taking an axe to a list of planned features. It happens, it's an unfortunate reality of the business. Is it crappy? Yeah, sometimes it is. Is it avoidable? Arguably. Does it change the fact that I have a lot of loyalty towards WotC simply for daring to develop a worthwhile set of online tools for their RPG? Not one bit.
I, for one, am content to be patient with them while they change the landscape of the tabletop gaming world for better and for always.
I've got no problem with you remaining loyal to WOTC. Trust me nothing would make me happier than Wizards releasing an awesome VTT. I'd be ecstatic. I'm just not holding my breath. If your players were as bad as mine, you'd be drooling for that app too so you could actually play with some people with a clue.
My only real problem is with people calling my opinions stupid. You are fine with companies coming up short on what they promise and I prefer to hold them to a higher standard. Why my preference is stupid is beyond me.
Grabuto138
First Post
Pin it to the player's sleeve like mittens.
Then hold them to a higher standard and don't play their game.
But if you come onto messageboards wishing upon stars that Paizo ran the game... while at the same time still playing the game as run by Wizards, people are going to call you on it. Sorry. But your actions are not matching your words.
For myself, I think many of the objections come more from WotC's poor job of communication than delays over the products themselves. The incomplete Monster Builder, for example - if, from the start, they were upfront about it being unfinished, and being rolled out mainly to help work with integration for the VT, than I think most folks wouldn't have a problem with that.
But instead they hyped it with capabilities it clearly doesn't have. And that built up false expectations, and angered customers when they failed to deliver.
Same thing we saw with the CB - they made it out to be the best thing ever, and it was barely functional at launch.
By now, it is working mostly smoothly, and many of the desired features are there. I'm sure that half a year from now, the entire online suite will be really robust and impressive.
But setting people up to expect perfect products right away has been a big part of the problem. Accompanied by the fact that their final releases for the offline CB and MB largely crippled the programs rather than enhanced them... and I can see why people are frustrated. That's poor treatment, any way you look at it.
I guess that's my gripe. If Wizards would shoot straight with us, I'd be satisfied. What we do or don't have isn't really my issue - it's what they say they're going to deliver that they don't. Just do what you tell me you're going to do. I'm reasonable, I can even handle if things aren't exactly like they said as long as it's close. My problem is they constantly overpromise and underdeliver. To me that's horrible business.
Keep in mind, though, that we are talking about very different timeframes here. You seem to have been burned heavily on the initial difficulties with DDI, in which the VTT and other programs didn't materialize at all.
Currently, while they are constantly botching the roll-out of their new digital programs, the programs are still released, and constantly seeing improvement. The online CB at launch was terrible - but most of the concerns have been addressed, and the remaining key issues are high priorities for them. The VTT is in beta and has been tested and used by many people. The Monster Builder is incomplete, but we know the reasons why.
Now, this isn't to say you should go sign up for DDI right away. Given your experience, I'd probably recommend against it. But I wouldn't dismiss their current work entirely, either. I'd wait a month or two and check back in then - and I suspect, in not too long, they'll have a product that delivers what you are looking for.
Dr_Ruminahui
First Post
I guess I see both sides on this.
On one hand, I can understand that the OP is "once burned, twice shy" by WotC's earlier digital failures. However, letting those color his D&D experience such that he no longer plays a game that he enjoys seems a bit like cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.
After all, one doesn't need DDI and the other tools to play 4e. Sure, they can make it a lot easier to do so. I love CB not so much because it does the math and has all the powers/feats in one place, but because I don't have to write out what all those powers and feats do - that said, some of my players use CB and still write out their own power cards. So, I see no reason for the OP not to play 4e even without the digital offerings - unless he feels that the experience wouldn't be worthwhile without them, which doesn't sound like its the case.
And, if he does think that various digital programs are important/helpful/necesary, there is no reason he doesn't, every now and again, give what is currently available a hard and honest look to determine if it offers sufficient value for his money.
On the other hand, I heartily disagree with posts suggesting that he has to either jump in whole hog or abandon 4e completely. That is a false dichotomy. There is no reason he can't let his views of WotC as a company color his decisions - just like I can stop buying shoes from a company with poor labour practices. Nor is there any reason he has to wholely adopt one position or the other - just because I support environmentalism doesn't mean I have to bike everywhere and live in a biodome... doing my recyclables and donating to the Green Party are acceptable, if lesser, alternatives.
So, there is no reason the OP shouldn't play 4e while also trying to support WotC as little as possible and support those companies he does admire. There is absolutely no problem with him running a "paper only" campaign with only those 4e books he does have, and for him never to buy another one - if that's what's fun for him and his group. Sure, this may not be good for the continued viability of 4e, but if he is happy with what he has, that's fine. Just because someone buys the PH doesn't mean they need to buy the PH2, for example... or another WotC product. And if one of his fellow players does decide to pick up some new 4e books... well, that's no skin off the OP's nose and good for WotC to boot.
And sure, buy 3rd party adventures - there aren't a whole lot out there (at least not compared to 3/3.5), but I've heard some of them (like the EN ones) are very good.
On one hand, I can understand that the OP is "once burned, twice shy" by WotC's earlier digital failures. However, letting those color his D&D experience such that he no longer plays a game that he enjoys seems a bit like cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.
After all, one doesn't need DDI and the other tools to play 4e. Sure, they can make it a lot easier to do so. I love CB not so much because it does the math and has all the powers/feats in one place, but because I don't have to write out what all those powers and feats do - that said, some of my players use CB and still write out their own power cards. So, I see no reason for the OP not to play 4e even without the digital offerings - unless he feels that the experience wouldn't be worthwhile without them, which doesn't sound like its the case.
And, if he does think that various digital programs are important/helpful/necesary, there is no reason he doesn't, every now and again, give what is currently available a hard and honest look to determine if it offers sufficient value for his money.
On the other hand, I heartily disagree with posts suggesting that he has to either jump in whole hog or abandon 4e completely. That is a false dichotomy. There is no reason he can't let his views of WotC as a company color his decisions - just like I can stop buying shoes from a company with poor labour practices. Nor is there any reason he has to wholely adopt one position or the other - just because I support environmentalism doesn't mean I have to bike everywhere and live in a biodome... doing my recyclables and donating to the Green Party are acceptable, if lesser, alternatives.
So, there is no reason the OP shouldn't play 4e while also trying to support WotC as little as possible and support those companies he does admire. There is absolutely no problem with him running a "paper only" campaign with only those 4e books he does have, and for him never to buy another one - if that's what's fun for him and his group. Sure, this may not be good for the continued viability of 4e, but if he is happy with what he has, that's fine. Just because someone buys the PH doesn't mean they need to buy the PH2, for example... or another WotC product. And if one of his fellow players does decide to pick up some new 4e books... well, that's no skin off the OP's nose and good for WotC to boot.
And sure, buy 3rd party adventures - there aren't a whole lot out there (at least not compared to 3/3.5), but I've heard some of them (like the EN ones) are very good.
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