I'm back - sort of

[Grabuto138]

Simply Hogwash.

On one hand, if the player does not pay attention enough, there will be errors completely of the player's making.
They should be more careful and pay more attention.

On the other hand, who cares about a few minor errors? If there is a plus one here or there, or a d8 instead of a d6 it will not break the game.

But finally, if my players cannot make a 4E character without DDI, I would really question their ability to handle the rules of the game. It really is not that hard to make a character.

Playing a 4E character is a lot harder, and DDI helps not a bit with that. But htat is a different topic.

I don't want to seem like I am beating up on Karinsdad but compared to 3e the escalating bonuses are pretty trivial. 3e was so fiddly with lots of potential static bonuses to everything (and more things than 4e), and then a lot more situational bonuses on top of that. All created using however many classes and prestige classes you could squeeze in given an extremely complex mix of requirements. Even one of the originals, the Arcane Trickster, could keep math dorks occupied for weeks. And God forbid your DM used the optional item creation guidlines as dogma and then was fool enough to let someone play an Artificer.

Compared to 1e, fair enough. But even Shadowrun 4th is a pain.

Edit: I am sorry if I set up yet enough 3e v. 4e derail. That is not my intention. I love you both in your own way. Really, I do.
But for 4e, once you have a piece of scrap paper with (assuming melee):
1/2lvl + mod + prof + expert + magic
then
mod + focus + magic

Everything else is a conscious decision and is easy enough to add to the scrap paper as you make the decisions. (yes, the Exp/WF feats are a decision too. But so common I put them on the scrap paper since it is more a consious decision not to take them.) The changes to things like Weapon Focus happen mostly at the tiers, which are monumental events (in a make-believe sense, not in a "having a kid" or "getting married" sense) and warrant a closer look at the character sheet anyway.

 

[Dannager]

Can you run it right now? I heard there were "bugs" again. If you can't run it right now then it doesn't exist. Some version of VTT apparently did exist although I heard the quality was pretty lame.

Of course there are bugs. It's a beta. That's the point. If they weren't taking it down for periods of time to squash bugs and then push more recent versions, that would be a bad sign because it would mean no one was doing anything about the bugs.

Also, who said the quality was lame? It's missing some flexibility that other VTTs have, but it's also got some features that they don't. Also, it's more intuitive than just about any of them. It sounds very much like you are either a) getting all your information on the VTT from some very biased sources (many of whom probably were not in the beta and thus don't even know what they're talking about to begin with), or b) you're getting your information from both sides and are ignoring all the information that makes the VTT look anything but awful.

Given how many times you've been told the VTT exists and is a real thing without giving it any credence, I'd wager the latter.

 

[Dannager]

Well, all of that stuff was promised from the beginning. We STILL don't have everything they said we'd have. The CB and MB are both worse since they changed them.

Tell that to a Mac user.

I subscribed to DDI originally BASED on the promised apps to shortly come. So, yes DDI is less valuable that what was promised to me when I signed up and I get to pay more for it.

Let me make sure I'm not missing anything.

You subscribed to DDI (at a price point made purposefully low to account for the lack of apps) based on the premise that you would eventually get more out of your subscription to justify its already low price point. Then apps came out, giving you more for your subscription. These apps don't do everything you want them to, so therefore DDI is less valuable than when you initially signed up.

Cryndo, that doesn't make any sense.

 

[the-golem]

Although I really don't have any proof, I think part of the reason is why WotC is doing stuff so horribly is because Hasbro keeps meddling. I really don't mind WotC much, but Hasbro is evil . Go to your favorite toy store, and wander to the board game isle. The vast majority of traditional board games are either Parker Brothers, or Milton Bradley. Guess what, Hasbro owns both of them. Hasbro's reach is rediculious.

Anywho, I got offtopic. Outside of maybe core books, which you probably already have, you don't really need much. If you're not the ultra-creative type, you could grab some Paizo APs and run them with 4e, although you'd have to convert them.

To be perfectly honest, though, having access to the Compendium is completely worth my subscription. Since the compendium contains just about everything, you don't really need anything else.

 

[Cryndo]

Of course there are bugs. It's a beta. That's the point. If they weren't taking it down for periods of time to squash bugs and then push more recent versions, that would be a bad sign because it would mean no one was doing anything about the bugs.

Also, who said the quality was lame? It's missing some flexibility that other VTTs have, but it's also got some features that they don't. Also, it's more intuitive than just about any of them. It sounds very much like you are either a) getting all your information on the VTT from some very biased sources (many of whom probably were not in the beta and thus don't even know what they're talking about to begin with), or b) you're getting your information from both sides and are ignoring all the information that makes the VTT look anything but awful.

Given how many times you've been told the VTT exists and is a real thing without giving it any credence, I'd wager the latter.

Oops, you forgot c) I'm disillusioned by a company that doesn't do what it says it will.

I can see there are some fanbois that support WOTC no matter what. That's fine. There are some that hate everything about WOTC and that's fine too. You're obviously the former. Cool. I'm neither. I see some really good things about Wizards and some really bad things. The game itself is great. Their customer service and delivering on what is promised sucks.

I was excited in 3E when they were releasing a character generator with the PH. Awesome! Well, it doesn't really work yet, but we'll get it out shortly. Well, it's taking longer than we thought, but hang with us. Well, never mind, we're scrapping the project. DDI has been the same way, but they haven't officially scrapped much yet. Just because you trust the boy that cries wolf doesn't mean I have to.

 

[Dannager]

Oops, you forgot c) I'm disillusioned by a company that doesn't do what it says it will.

This would be a cause behind reason b, wouldn't it?

I can see there are some fanbois that support WOTC no matter what. That's fine. There are some that hate everything about WOTC and that's fine too. You're obviously the former. Cool.

Really? I criticized them for overhyping the new Adventure Tools release like three days ago. Maybe stick around a while.

I was excited in 3E when they were releasing a character generator with the PH. Awesome! Well, it doesn't really work yet, but we'll get it out shortly. Well, it's taking longer than we thought, but hang with us. Well, never mind, we're scrapping the project. DDI has been the same way, but they haven't officially scrapped much yet. Just because you trust the boy that cries wolf doesn't mean I have to.

Uhh...we have an officially supported database of all current rules options, a similarly official character builder with all current rules options (or the vast majority of them), an offline monster builder that's a few months out of date because they're making an online one, and a VTT that's in late public beta stages.

How is this in any way comparable to the 3e character creation tool?

 

[Cryndo]

Tell that to a Mac user.



Let me make sure I'm not missing anything.

You subscribed to DDI (at a price point made purposefully low to account for the lack of apps) based on the premise that you would eventually get more out of your subscription to justify its already low price point. Then apps came out, giving you more for your subscription. These apps don't do everything you want them to, so therefore DDI is less valuable than when you initially signed up.

Cryndo, that doesn't make any sense.

When I signed up, I was told that the apps that STILL are not available would be ready in short order. I was told that I'd be able to use my CB offline. I was told that I'd be able to always download the complete Dungeon and Dragon magazines.

So what does Wizards do? They release a couple apps and they're decent. Then they take one of the apps functionality away and at the same time raise the price. My interest in DDI was twofold - CB and VTT. Both of those apps are not what I was promised. I'm sorry if you can't see why that would bother someone. That doesn't make any sense.

 

[Cryndo]

This would be a cause behind reason b, wouldn't it?



Really? I criticized them for overhyping the new Adventure Tools release like three days ago. Maybe stick around a while.



Uhh...we have an officially supported database of all current rules options, a similarly official character builder with all current rules options (or the vast majority of them), an offline monster builder that's a couple months out of date because they're making on online one, and a VTT that's in late public beta stages.

How is this in any way comparable to the 3e character creation tool?

Umm, because a) we were supposed to have all of this stuff years ago and b) what they gave us is not what they told us we were going to get. The problem is Wizards promises one thing and does another. Just like with the 3E software.

 

[Dannager]

Umm, because a) we were supposed to have all of this stuff years ago and b) what they gave us is not what they told us we were going to get. The problem is Wizards promises one thing and does another. Just like with the 3E software.

The 3e software was totally abandoned.

It's pretty clear that none of the 4e software was abandoned, even the ones that most of us thought were abandoned (like the VTT) - well, okay, the character visualizer is probably gone for good, but thank goodness. Some of them are different than they appeared in the first previews, but I don't think that you can compare their handling of 4e software with their handling of 3e software with any real level of similarity beyond that they both weren't ready when they said they'd be.

 

[KarinsDad]

Simply Hogwash.

...

But finally, if my players cannot make a 4E character without DDI, I would really question their ability to handle the rules of the game. It really is not that hard to make a character.

Simply Hogwash.

Most players without a software assistance tool will make a mistake with their character sheets sooner or later, and some players will do it a lot. This very rarely happens with CB.

Take 20th level.

There's 12 or 13 feat writeups that have to be written down, there's 15 powers (non-simple Essentials PC), there's probably more than a dozen powers and/or properties and/or special modifiers for magic items.

That's 40 things on a character sheet that are different from one PC to the next, at least a third of which can change as the PCs level.

The skill list and ability scores and defenses? Sure, those are pretty easy. But, the powers that can change as the PCs take feats or gain magic items will occasionally have mistakes.

With enough work (and enough time), most players can put together a character sheet. That's not the issue. The issue is whether the character sheet is correct. That's were our contention lies.


There's a lot of ways that errors can creep in. A player had +1 Scale armor and gains +2 Scale armor. He boosts his AC by 1. He doesn't realize that the new Scale armor is actually DragonScale armor that gets another +1 masterwork bonus. The DM might not even think that the armor has changed and might just say "+2 Scale armor". Opps.

You might be very knowledgeable and rarely make a mistake, but not all players are that due diligent. Not every player has every book at hand when they are working on their character sheet. And, it's pretty easy to say that it wouldn't be a problem after all of us have been spoiled with the ease of CB and used it for the last nearly 3 years, but take it away and many groups would be swamped with the work.