D&D 1E How would you emulate a 1E/2E Cloak of Elvenkind?

[Kibo]

warning: even if you've washed your hands thoroughly ... do not rub your eyes after cutting up a hot pepper! ... It still stings

Warning!: Don't put salt in your eyes!

 

[Wolf72]

Warning!: Don't put salt in your eyes!

ssuuuuuurrrrreeee now I'm told!

 

[dcollins]

My character has an Elven Cloak, and so far we've just been playing it like the 1E/2E cloaks; you put the hood on, and are rendered almost totally invisible...

It's one of the most commonly misplayed item, but the AD&D 1st Ed. cloaks were not supposed to work like that. One of the bigger arguments I had with a player of mine just prior to 3rd Ed. was over this very point... at the time, before the 3rd Ed. DMG was out, I correctly predicted that the new rules would give it a +10 Hide bonus, because that in fact is the proper conversion for it.

If you have the 1st Ed. DMG there's first a big section on all the limitations of invisibility in the first place (p. 59-60)... including that if someone sees you turn invisible, they can still attack you anyway. Cloaks, however, don't actually grant invisibility but only a "chameleonlike power" (p. 141)... in a brightly lit room or within a light spell the chance for nondetection drops as low as just 50%. The kicker is that it specifically states "the wearer is easily seen if violently or hastily moving, regardless of the surroundings". In other words, almost exactly like the "Hide" mechanic.

 

[Kai Lord]

Re: Re: How would you emulate a 1E/2E Cloak of Elvenkind?

It's one of the most commonly misplayed item, but the AD&D 1st Ed. cloaks were not supposed to work like that.

Sorry, but that's exactly how they worked. 95% non-detection while walking across an open field? You ain't pulling that off with a Hide check.

One of the bigger arguments I had with a player of mine just prior to 3rd Ed. was over this very point... at the time, before the 3rd Ed. DMG was out, I correctly predicted that the new rules would give it a +10 Hide bonus, because that in fact is the proper conversion for it.

You should have listened to your player.

If you have the 1st Ed. DMG there's first a big section on all the limitations of invisibility in the first place (p. 59-60)... including that if someone sees you turn invisible, they can still attack you anyway. Cloaks, however, don't actually grant invisibility but only a "chameleonlike power" (p. 141)... in a brightly lit room or within a light spell the chance for nondetection drops as low as just 50%. The kicker is that it specifically states "the wearer is easily seen if violently or hastily moving, regardless of the surroundings". In other words, almost exactly like the "Hide" mechanic.

What's the DC for a Hide check for strolling through the radius of a Daylight spell with nothing to hide behind? There isn't one, because its impossible. With a Cloak of Elvenkind that was a 50/50 proposition.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Constant near-invisibility with an item costing only 2000gp? I want three (one for sundays).

Come on, they changed the cloak and the boots because they were broken. Your 1st-level fighter with Dex 8, but with cloaks and boots of elvenkind, should be better at stealth than the Elven Rugue 20 with Dex 30? I'm clearly against any Item (especially if it's so damn cheap as in that case) that grants you abilities you usually need a PrC for!

 

[dcollins]

Re: Re: Re: How would you emulate a 1E/2E Cloak of Elvenkind?

Sorry, but that's exactly how they worked. 95% non-detection while walking across an open field? You ain't pulling that off with a Hide check.

Sure you are... if it's dark out (i.e., not "brightly lit").

Furthermore, the whole point to the "natural surroundings" clause is that it expects an overgrown area, not a plowed field or otherwise unnaturally "open" area.

What's the DC for a Hide check for strolling through the radius of a Daylight spell with nothing to hide behind? There isn't one, because its impossible. With a Cloak of Elvenkind that was a 50/50 proposition.

Where does the Hide skill say you need something to Hide "behind"? It says no such thing. By the rules you can absolutely hide in the open... you just can't initiate hiding in plain sight, exactly like the 1st Ed. rules which allowed you to be attacked if you tried to disappear in plain sight.

Furthermore, similarly, if you're "strolling" or moving at full speed, then that would trigger the "moving hastily" clause... indicating that the user should instead creep/sneak along, exactly as the Hide mechanic which demands a 1/2 movement rate before penalties kick in.

 

[Kai Lord]

Re: Re: Re: Re: How would you emulate a 1E/2E Cloak of Elvenkind?

Sure you are... if it's dark out (i.e., not "brightly lit").

That's funny, with the Cloak you could do it even if brightly lit (50% chance.) So +10 Hide doesn't do it then, now does it?

Furthermore, the whole point to the "natural surroundings" clause is that it expects an overgrown area, not a plowed field or otherwise unnaturally "open" area.

Naturally open means naturally open. The 1E DMG never stated that it expected it to be overgrown.

Where does the Hide skill say you need something to Hide "behind"? It says no such thing. By the rules you can absolutely hide in the open... you just can't initiate hiding in plain sight, exactly like the 1st Ed. rules which allowed you to be attacked if you tried to disappear in plain sight.

Okay now you're saying I didn't misplay using the Cloak at all, and by your argument me being hidden while walking along a moonlit beach was perfectly legal. I wasn't really advocating putting the hood on and disappearing while being observed, just using the Cloak to walk about unseen out in the open. Something that is "always on" like a lesser version of Invisibility.

Furthermore, similarly, if you're "strolling" or moving at full speed, then that would trigger the "moving hastily" clause... indicating that the user should instead creep/sneak along, exactly as the Hide mechanic which demands a 1/2 movement rate before penalties kick in.

"Strolling" means walking. Walking is not moving hastily.

 

[Kai Lord]

Constant near-invisibility with an item costing only 2000gp? I want three (one for sundays).

Come on, they changed the cloak and the boots because they were broken. Your 1st-level fighter with Dex 8, but with cloaks and boots of elvenkind, should be better at stealth than the Elven Rugue 20 with Dex 30? I'm clearly against any Item (especially if it's so damn cheap as in that case) that grants you abilities you usually need a PrC for!

Tell you what, we'll just say my character's Cloak of Elvenkind is an artifact worth a jallion bajillion gold pieces, and it behaves exactly like the 1E Cloaks did. The discussion (which I thought was quite obvious) was how to emulate the old Cloak of Elvenkind with 3E mechanics, not whether or not it was a good buy at KaeYoss's Discount Magic Emporium.

This means walking around with no cover and being able to pass by unseen sometimes even in the middle of a Daylight spell.

 

[Crothian]

Constant near-invisibility with an item costing only 2000gp? I want three (one for sundays).

Come on, they changed the cloak and the boots because they were broken. Your 1st-level fighter with Dex 8, but with cloaks and boots of elvenkind, should be better at stealth than the Elven Rugue 20 with Dex 30? I'm clearly against any Item (especially if it's so damn cheap as in that case) that grants you abilities you usually need a PrC for!

So, near invisibility is better then invisibility? You need an prestige class for an ability that is not as good as a second level spell?

They changed the items becasue they used to work on a wierd percentage chance of detetection that was very cumbersome to use. It had nothing to do with the power of the items.

I do not understnd your reasoning at all, basically becasue you didn't give any. Also, the Hide skill is many times better then Invisibility, because hide is an oppossed skill, and invisibility is a set DC. So, with hi hide skill you can easily get above the set DC and no one will ever have a chance of finding you.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How would you emulate a 1E/2E Cloak of Elvenkind?

Okay now you're saying I didn't misplay using the Cloak at all, and by your argument me being hidden while walking along a moonlit beach was perfectly legal. I wasn't really advocating putting the hood on and disappearing while being observed, just using the Cloak to walk about unseen out in the open. Something that is "always on" like a lesser version of Invisibility.


"

I'd say sort of. If there is no place to hide, there is no place to hide.(you can consider it impossible or just such an absurdly large circumstance penalty you can't do it without being epic, or having special abilities) But as a general rule most places have at least some areas to hide in, without detailed tactical maps of the entie planet each foot detailed its generally assumed you can hide. But if the DM says there is a corridor, well lit, no shadows,no objects in it, and a guard facing you. Trying to sneak down it probably isn't the best plan. On the other hand a moonlit beach seems to be a decent place ot nseak up on someone. Why, sand isn't perfectly smooth, there will be shadows, dunes etc to hide in/behind. Now you actually would have to hide, so you can't just stroll up to them because your cloak is on. So the cloak wouldn't work likethey did in 1e/2e.