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D&D 1E Do you miss Demons and Devils?

when you only read the title lul
? I did read the post, which contained no questions to answer so I responded with an extremely abbreviated account of my own experiences. If I actually missed something in the OP, well you got me. I read it again (a couple times). As far as I can recall I'm not wrong...
 

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Greggy C

Hero
? I did read the post, which contained no questions to answer so I responded with an extremely abbreviated account of my own experiences. If I actually missed something in the OP, well you got me. I read it again (a couple times). As far as I can recall I'm not wrong...
They are way less scary, quite mundane bag of hit points now, I think there devils used in Curse of Strahd as cannon fodder. TerraDaves post is a good comparison, of which I'll have to dig into deeper later.
 

Not all D&D is 5E though, and even when the edition changes, not all the changes are good ideas that anybody has to comply with. So I don't. Demons and devils, for me at least if not others, have not been changed since 1E since nothing about them (names, special abilities, usage within a campaign) needed changing. Although, you mention hit points, and obviously in order to fit the ORIGINAL conceptions into other editions, basic stats like hit points, hit dice, and AC naturally have to be adapted to retain that relative original conception.
 

Voadam

Legend
I don't have a lot of experience with fiends so far in 5e, but I have a lot from prior editions and Pathfinder both as a DM and as a player of demon hunter concept characters.

I really liked the 1e MM, Fiend Folio, and MMII fiends. Jim Holloway's art in MMII was particularly evocative. I have always found the fiend lords engaging from Demogorgon's entry in the 1e MM on.

I hated fiend gating in 1e-3e. And teleporting. 3e in particular had a lot of fiend teleporting abilities that made them annoying hit and run combatants and drove some stuff towards tactics to magically pin them down which was not quite the combat feel I was usually going for.

Role Aids from Mayfair Games had a nice series of Demons supplements for 1e AD&D that I enjoyed.

2e I really liked the fleshed out characterizations and introduction of the Blood War in the Outer Planes Monstrous Compendium Appendix and then later stuff on fiends in Planescape (which I only came to much later). The Monster Mythology book had a few entries for Demon Lords that were a bunch of fun, including adding a reptilian one as the patron of Lizard Kings. The Book of Hell was a different 2e take that really reconceptualized Asmodeus in particular.

3e was interesting in their take on fiends. I particularly liked mechanical alignment descriptors for fiends and alignment based DR in 3.5. 3.0 had them with a lot of spell-like abilities and SR and such balanced against normal combat stats which made them fairly glass canons for their CR, while 3.5 took away a lot of spell stuff and bumped up their HD and combat stats. Pathfinder continued that trend bumping up their combat stats even more for their CRs.

3e went in pretty hard on the fiend lords not being gods in Book of Vile Darkness which went against the 3e trend of accommodating godless clerics that continued from 2e. It pegged the Demon Lords as low 20s for CRs and was fun to get them back in the game concretely.

Dragon Magazine's 3.5 Demonomicon articles were a big expansion of lore on various demon lords and added a bunch of fun material. It also gave options to bump them up to the high 30s in CR. The fiendish Codexes were great, adding in more concentrated lore and demons and demon lord stats between the BoVD and the Dragon stats. With the addition of Aspects providing low CR avatar type versions of demon lords (like around CR 10 or whatever) there were plenty of options for demon lord stat models at whatever level you liked.

3e also had the explosion of the OGL with gems like Book of Fiends (a lot of cool new fiends and fiend lords, though a lot of underpowered ones that were statted out) and things like the Slayer's Guide to Fiends which had themed demon family types besides the Tanari.

Pathfinder took over the 3e D&D legacy and really expanded the fiends with multiple new group types (Kytons became their own thing, Oni, Deva, Rakshasa) all with their own themes and lords.

4e redid the demon devil cosmology from 2e's souls of the damned in the outer planes and turned all devils into fallen angels and all demons into corrupted elementals which worked well for me narratively. Succubi switched from demons to devils, then later some went back to demons with Grazz'ts new story of being a demon lord who was a corrupted Arch-Devil who was a fallen angel. Mechanically fiends were 4e monsters so each had their own mechanical and role based shticks but not the classic teleport and list of spell like abilities. I enjoyed them as monsters in fights. 4e also had a great Demonomicon book.

5e went back to a lot of 3e fiend lore but also turned Succubi from 0e-3e demons and 4e devils to NE fiends of their own type.

5e has come out with a bunch of Demon Lords in the mega module and some description of fiend lore in Mordenkainen's, but I don't have the module or the monster lore book.
 

Tonguez

A suffusion of yellow
I do.

Secondly by the time my group were fighting them it was on an outer plane, and that was SCARY. You lost 2 points from your swords, armor, rings of protection, meaning some weapons might not even hurt a demon. Their magic resistance was very scary to the magic users in your party. It was just such an awesome time. .
And this is why All DnD Devils are dumb, I want Devils who corrupt your soul bringing terror insanity and despair not bags of Hit Points that PCs can fight. Yeah so I should probabaly play Call of Cthulhu instead, but still - I can accept beating up on demons but devils should be a threat to the immortal soul rather than just ones flesh
 

jolt

Adventurer
The introduction of Challenge Ratings has really changed things, IMO. From 3E on, the expectation is generally going to be that anything you encounter will be "balanced". That certainly wasn't true in many of the older modules where the safest approach to something could be to avoid it. It doesn't matter how tough Graz'zt is in 5E because it's highly unlikely you'll interact with him until his CR is appropriate for the group.
 

Voadam

Legend
The introduction of Challenge Ratings has really changed things, IMO. From 3E on, the expectation is generally going to be that anything you encounter will be "balanced". That certainly wasn't true in many of the older modules where the safest approach to something could be to avoid it. It doesn't matter how tough Graz'zt is in 5E because it's highly unlikely you'll interact with him until his CR is appropriate for the group.
A lot of AD&D modules had things you were supposed to fight and some had things that were too tough and you were supposed to get a dramatic plot scene and then run away or watch more plot stuff happen and then fight an appropriate threat thing at a different point.

All of D&D has tried to balance things to generally be within an appropriate threat range, dungeon level charts out of the 1e DMG were specifically designed to calibrate threat levels. Modules had specific suggested level ranges since the 70s.

Older D&D and particularly older low level adventures had a higher design threshold for allowing individual characters to die as part of the normal game, but it was still designed to be calibrated to be an expected threat range. From about Dragonlance on there was a shift to going more plot story with specific fight here and do not fight there story beats in adventures and this trend grew as 2e advanced. Whereas Keep on the Borderland had an Ogre and Minotaur at the bottom caves and kobolds in the top and players could go where they want so you could increase or decrease challenge by going to different places, plot heavier adventures got more railroady and most things would either be something you could fight or railroad tracks would often stop fights or allow a party to somehow escape after challenging the wrong threat.

I think CR made evaluating challenges easier, but also emerged consistent in the timeline with the design change on play style. More 2e heroes kicking in the door to slay evil and less fantasy Vietnam.
 

Greggy C

Hero
While it may be I was younger, and so much more impressionable, but the original art, despite being black and white drawing, evokes more emotion of their power than the cutesy 5e version. I mean it is rocking a lightning bolt and a whip, and is covered in flames.

1643910536632.png
 

Voadam

Legend
While it may be I was younger, and so much more impressionable, but the original art, despite being black and white drawing, evokes more emotion of their power than the cutesy 5e version. I mean it is rocking a lightning bolt and a whip, and is covered in flames.

View attachment 151238
That's a 5e Devil Pit Fiend and a 1e Demon Balor.

Here is the 5e Demon Balor for comparison of lightning sword to lightning sword.

1643911792040.png

1643912250253.png

DCS has his charms for the 1e demons, but Trampier gets the top slot for me as favorite artist in the 1e MM.

Here is the 1e Pit Fiend he did to compare to the 5e version above:
1643911996260.png
1643912283119.png
 


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