D&D 5E Do we need a Fifth Edition Revival (5ER)?

[mamba]

5E golden age ended early 2020 with Theros ymmv.

seems about right, I always used Tasha as turning point (and the first one that went south), that was released one month later

As to the 5ER, D&D is doing fine, I do not think it needs a revival. I still would like to see a 5ER however, as I want to see a slightly different take on it personally. A 5ER probably will produce that take, WotC will not.

 

[DEFCON 1]

That's right - and I'd love to see that wildly creative scene emerge in the 5E ecosystem as well. I don't think we are there yet, and it might be because folk still feel tethered to Hasbro and the "official rules". That is the essence of my essay.

Are you sure it's not here, or is it perhaps that you just don't see it in the same way as the OSR because there's so much stuff in 5E right now in totality that the creative scene you are looking for is just spread out and hidden amongst all the rest of it?

The OSR movement is extremely small and thus everything regarding it is compacted into this one little area that each of us can go to and look over nice and easy. And we can see exactly all the creative stuff right then and there all together in one big group. Whereas all the quality 5E products are out there for us to see as well... and there's probably just as many (if not more) than the number of quality OSR products available... but they are so spread out over a much wider area and interspersed amongst a whole lot of crap so it gives the impression that 5E is lacking in creativity (especially when a number of those products are made by WotC and thus stand out and draw focus from so much of the 5E scene). But in reality it's all there for us right now-- we just have to actually work to find it.

Sure, having a '5E Revival' could be nice because it would bring all the "good stuff" together in one place and thus interested parties could just find it without actually having to put a lot of effort into it... but sometimes we all just have to work for our supper. Despite our best wishes, nothing is going to just be handed to us.

 

[Ancalagon]

Exploding barrels of oil? Creating slippery surfaces? Swinging on ropes or chandeliers? Pushing a boulder into a swarm of goblins?
None of this stuff is in 5e. The game would be improved if the options were there, in my opinion.

I'm pretty sure the DMG has suggestions for stuff like this...

 

[Retreater]

I'm pretty sure the DMG has suggestions for stuff like this...

If you're referring to the one quarter of a page on p249 under "Improvising Damage," that's at least a nod to tactical interaction with the environment, but I don't think it goes far enough. As it is, it's pretty half baked.
What I'd like is a series of statblocks (similar to traps). [Which, let's just say, traps are described terribly in the DMG. The description of a simple pit trap is a half page of narrative text, twice the length of the optional rule for Improvising Damage.] Example:

Exploding Oil Barrel
Opportunity Terrain Feature
When the oil barrel is struck [AC 12] by a fire-based attack, it explodes in a 15 ft. diameter. Targets in the area take 5 (1d6+2) fire damage, Dexterity save DC 12 for half.

Provide a few examples (10-15) of these so DMs can extrapolate their own ideas.

 

[Jacob Lewis]

They did. I told them if they want that game, we could switch to 4E or PF2. So we're currently playing 4E, which despite being much maligned and with a significantly shorter production lifespan, ended up being better supported by WotC than 5e.

"Better supported" in what way? By removing all the official software tools so it is no longer available to anyone? By excluding it from the open license so no one can share created content, or allowing better support for modern VTTs? By preserving content previously published and available on their own website?

And let's not forget the mountain of printed material that has been riddled with constant changes and updates during the lifespan of the edition, but have never been updated in reprints. Having spent the better part of the last two years working on revitalizing 4e for my own purposes, I can tell you there has been little support to do what I'd like to do, and a lot of effort trying to make it work at even a fraction of what 5e players currently enjoy.

No, sir. I don't believe WotC failed anyone where 5e is concerned. I think the fan base just expected too much without realizing how much they already had. 5e is not the same tactical game of D&D that some wanted (and expected) it to be. We just failed to embrace it as a story-driven game that allowed people to tell whatever story they liked without being shackled to the outcomes of every combat encounter.

 

[Retreater]

"Better supported" in what way? By removing all the official software tools so it is no longer available to anyone? By excluding it from the open license so no one can share created content, or allowing better support for modern VTTs? By preserving content previously published and available on their own website?

Of course, my preferences are going to shape what I classify as "support." This is what I'd award 4e points for...

• Numerous splat books with options for other races and classes. (5e has what? Two?)
• Complete adventure series covering 1st-30th levels. (5e largely stops at 10th level)
• Promotional support for organized play, published adventures, prizes and incentives for players and DMs. (Adventurer's League has some PDFs, all produced by a third party organization.)
• Errata means that they at least wanted balance in 4e. (5e left rangers and other things that needed errata for balance to die on the vine.)
• Adventures in Dungeon Magazine.

And let's not forget the mountain of printed material that has been riddled with constant changes and updates during the lifespan of the edition, but have never been updated in reprints. Having spent the better part of the last two years working on revitalizing 4e for my own purposes, I can tell you there has been little support to do what I'd like to do, and a lot of work trying to make it work.

I'm running 4e fine with the print books. No one even knows that there was errata. As the DM, it's not even on my radar. I've found fan-hosted character builders, monster databases, etc. It's out there - not even that hard to find.

No, sir. I don't believe WotC failed anyone where 5e is concerned. I think the fan base just expected too much without realizing how much they already had. 5e is not the same tactical game of D&D that some wanted (and expected) it to be. We just failed to embrace it as a story-focused game that allowed people to tell whatever story they liked without being shackled to the outcomes of every combat encounter.

5e was designed and released as a "good enough" edition by a skeleton crew that was never (well, in a decade, anyway) cleaned up and presented with improvements to the design. Some core classes and races are badly designed, spells cause issues, the encounter building guidelines are awful, the DMG is probably the worst book of its kind released for a major RPG system. There's not even guidance to run it as a "story-focused game" - because if you're doing a story-focused game you don't base challenges off 6-8 fights in a day, you have rules/strategies for running "theatre of the mind," you have tips for rewarding backgrounds and personal quests.
5e has coasted on being a middling system. If you're looking for a "story-focused game" to tell stories, there are many that do it better than 5e D&D.

 

[overgeeked]

That's right - and I'd love to see that wildly creative scene emerge in the 5E ecosystem as well. I don't think we are there yet, and it might be because folk still feel tethered to Hasbro and the "official rules". That is the essence of my essay.

I’m not sure that will happen because of the fundamental differences between the systems in use. Yes, they’re both using editions of D&D. But the old-school mechanics the OSR focuses on are more hackable and flexible because they’re not unified. The mindset and playstyle differences also restrain the 5E sphere far more than the OSR. The OSR started as a fundamentally DIY scene and that remains incredibly strong today. The same can’t be said of 5E.

Also something to consider. If it were going to happen, it already would have. 5E is several orders of magnitude bigger than the entire OSR combined.

 

[MockingBird]

Wow! Kind of discrediting the people who actually put their time into creating 5e labeling it as just "good enough". It's the most popular edition of the game and in my opinion the best edition of the game. 5e has been well supported, inside and outside. I get some folks have frustrations with 5e but I definitely wouldn't call it just "good enough". I applaud the designers for making a fairly rules light game. My family has grown so close due to our game night. My kids and wife picking up 5e easily and quickly, something I don't think would have happened or happened as easily with 3e or 4e.

 

[overgeeked]

Wow! Kind of discrediting the people who actually put their time into creating 5e labeling it as just "good enough". It's the most popular edition of the game and in my opinion the best edition of the game. 5e has been well supported, inside and outside. I get some folks have frustrations with 5e but I definitely wouldn't call it just "good enough".

I think that comes from having lots of experience with earlier editions and non-D&D games. 5E is popular, granted. But other games, even older editions of D&D, do all the same things only better. Of the things 5E does it isn’t the best for any of them. Monster fighting? 4E did it way better. Story-gaming? Actual story-games do it infinitely better. Dungeon crawling? Hexcrawls? Sandboxing? Exploration? 5E has almost zero or literally zero support for any of those, so any TSR edition and almost the whole of the OSR does all of those better.

I applaud the designers for making a fairly rules light game.

That's a shifting baseline. You could do a lot more with less than half the word count.

My family has grown so close due to our game night.

That's awesome. Playing D&D together was a main bonding experience between me and my brothers. We've since all had kids and have introduced them all to the hobby and play as an extended family. That you used 5E isn't what caused that though. Any game you regularly pushed to play would have done the same.

My kids and wife picking up 5e easily and quickly, something I don't think would have happened or happened as easily with 3e or 4e.

About half of the next generation of our gaming group started with 4E and they picked it up just as fast as the other half picked up 5E. The core of the game is the same.

 

[Oofta]

I think that comes from having lots of experience with earlier editions and non-D&D games. 5E is popular, granted. But other games, even older editions of D&D, do all the same things only better. Of the things 5E does it isn’t the best for any of them. Monster fighting? 4E did it way better. Story-gaming? Actual story-games do it infinitely better. Dungeon crawling? Hexcrawls? Sandboxing? Exploration? 5E has almost zero or literally zero support for any of those, so any TSR edition and almost the whole of the OSR does all of those better.

That's a shifting baseline. You could do a lot more with less than half the word count.

That's awesome. Playing D&D together was a main bonding experience between me and my brothers. We've since all had kids and have introduced them all to the hobby and play as an extended family. That you used 5E isn't what caused that though. Any game you regularly pushed to play would have done the same.

About half of the next generation of our gaming group started with 4E and they picked it up just as fast as the other half picked up 5E. The core of the game is the same.

Your experience is hardly universal. When 4E first came out, a lot of people started playing but the game simply didn't have the staying power that 5E has had.

You may prefer a different edition, but the only real change between the 2-4 years when 5E sold more than 4E had was the edition change.