D&D 5E D&D Class Design Criticism

[discosoc]

I am not sure I agree. I dont think this criticism was true with regards to 4e. Even in 5e I still think the main class defining abilities are there by 3rd level.

Yes, but my argument isn't about a class not getting anything interesting in the early and mid levels. It's that so much of the stuff gained at higher levels seem to be the kind of "workhorse mechanics" that you'd really want to have available throughout your career -- not just the very tail end of it.

For example, Foe Slayer is the Ranger capstone that allows you to add your Wisdom modifier to one attack against a favored enemy. Is that really something that's going to have much of a chance to shine in the 1 or 2 sessions that you'll probably get to play with it? Or how about the Assassin Rogue ability of Death Strike letting you do double damage against a surprised creature that fails a Con save? You get that at level 17, and honestly how many chances are you really going to have to stretch your legs with it? That would be a really cool ability to get closer to 10, where you could maybe work in a usage each session (not that surprising enemies is particularly easy), but by 17 it just feels like a missed opportunity.

So yeah, although a lot of the mid and high level abilities aren't core character concepts, they *would* be really fun to actually use more than is possible considering the level you gain them versus the remaining campaign time. Some really aren't even that great for their level, often just duplicating spell effects that the party has had for a long while (Monk's "Empty Body" at level 18).

Or maybe everyone else just has campaigns that last long after reaching level 20?

 

[Flamestrike]

That said, I really think that most 5e classes feel "complete" by level 3-5.

I agree.

By third level youve got your archetype up and running, and you are definitely unique to everyone else at the table around you. Druids are turning into Bears. Fighters are using action surge and superiority dice. Rogues are using cunning action and sneak attack. Sorcerers are using metamagic. Barbarians are frothing in the mouth berserkers. Monks are using flurry of blows. etc.

Most games hit third level after one or two sessions at maximum.

5th Level is where you actually feel like you're good at your job.

 

[cbwjm]

I agree.

By third level youve got your archetype up and running, and you are definitely unique to everyone else at the table around you. Druids are turning into Bears. Fighters are using action surge and superiority dice. Rogues are using cunning action and sneak attack. Sorcerers are using metamagic. Barbarians are frothing in the mouth berserkers. Monks are using flurry of blows. etc.

Most games hit third level after one or two sessions at maximum.

5th Level is where you actually feel like you're good at your job.

It's funny, because I've always felt that 5th level was that sweet spot where a class finally starts to be good at what it does ever since I started playing back with the rules cyclopedia and then 2e. Back then I felt that casters had enough spells to not be overly reliant on throwing darts, warriors had enough hit points and their Thac0 was good enough that they could start reliably hitting their opponents more often than not. It just seemed like the level where people suddenly started to feel like heroes instead of heroes in training.

 

[Flamestrike]

It's funny, because I've always felt that 5th level was that sweet spot where a class finally starts to be good at what it does ever since I started playing back with the rules cyclopedia and then 2e. Back then I felt that casters had enough spells to not be overly reliant on throwing darts, warriors had enough hit points and their Thac0 was good enough that they could start reliably hitting their opponents more often than not. It just seemed like the level where people suddenly started to feel like heroes instead of heroes in training.

Yep and 11th level when you really started to feel like a legend. You hit name level at around this point.

Ahh good old 'name level'. That takes me back.

 

[CapnZapp]

Your example is a perfect example of something that should be a skill check and not a class ability.


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Sorry but at some point you need to question why you are playing a class based game.

Perhaps a skill based game would suit you better.

Not saying this to snark. Am genuinely recommending you to switch games instead of trying to make dnd into what it is not.

Thx

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

 

[Yunru]

Sorry but at some point you need to question why you are playing a class based game.

Perhaps a skill based game would suit you better.

Not saying this to snark. Am genuinely recommending you to switch games instead of trying to make dnd into what it is not.

Thx

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

Interesting you suggest this when clearly you haven't taken in the context, like at all.

Also amusing that you of all people suggest that someone switch games rather than alter it.

 

[Lanefan]

Most games hit third level after one or two sessions at maximum.

Which to me is a game-destroying bug, not a feature. If the game has, say, 20 levels and 2 of them go by in one or two sessions, that's 10% of the game over with in a flash. What a waste!

Lan-"part of the fun is playing characters long before they become heroes, and watching as they then develop into the legends they will become"

 

[S'mon]

Which to me is a game-destroying bug, not a feature. If the game has, say, 20 levels and 2 of them go by in one or two sessions, that's 10% of the game over with in a flash. What a waste!

Lan-"part of the fun is playing characters long before they become heroes, and watching as they then develop into the legends they will become"

I'm really conflicted about this personally. In the abstract I really hate the super-fast levelling 1-3 and the very fast levelling 11+. In play it seems to work ok though, which I guess is why it was implemented - lots of playtesting. I do generally still prefer the 4e approach where 1st level characters can be heroic (depending on how GM stats their environment) and levelling is slow & steady all through.

 

[CapnZapp]

OTOH slowing character advancement is one of the easiest and least intrusive changes you can make to the game...

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[Herobizkit]

I actually liked the concept put forward by d20 modern, in that all core classes 'capped' at level 10. This required you to m/c into other classes or prestige classes in order to continue advancement.

Given that none of my d20 Modern games ever made it to level 10, multi-classing was a non-issue.

I am a multi-classing fiend from the 1e days on.

I also share the sentiment of "your character doesn't 'get gud' til 5th level". By then, it often feels like your game's either half over and/or you've already become the most powerful people in the land so might as well start over at 1...