CR/EL System View

[Psion]

Was there ever anything made by WotC that you actually didn't like without question? (Sorry, sorry... But, man, it seems like your response to any criticism of something D&D related is "What are you talking about? It's perfect!" It's enough to start believing Jack Chick isn't a complete lunatic. )

I think you are flying off the handle.

I've been given to disagree with Merric on more than a few occasions, but I generally agree on this issue. Many a time have second guessed the CR of creatures and have been proven wrong.

At higher levels, its a bit more varied, but really, since PC abilities vary so widely and there is a higher dependance upon random rolls, that is really to be expected. That MMII values were off is well known. Authors that work frequently with monsters know this, hindsight being 20/20. But that means they have a better bead on it now. "Might as well be picked out of a hat"? That's pure hyperbole.

 

[MerricB]

Was there ever anything made by WotC that you actually didn't like without question?

Go and find my review of Map Folio II, if it still exists.

Mostly, I don't post concerning my dislikes of Wizards material, primarily as I'm aware that it's my personal taste. I think Lords of Madness is the biggest waste of paper & time that Wizards has produced (except for Map Folio II), but I also know it's a favourite of several people here.

I plan to write a 2-star review of Powers of Faerun one of these days as well. Very, very disappointed in that product.

Cheers!

 

[Arashi Ravenblade]

More of a Guideline and Art.
I never messed wtih the EL either. I understand it, it's just more work that doesnt really do anything for the game except confuse the players.

 

[pogre]

I'm between the top two choices. I'm pretty strict about ELs when creating adventures. However, I agree that some monsters, like dragons, are way undervalued. And I resent the fact that this seems to be by design.

 

[thedungeondelver]

Dispose of entirely.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

It's a guideline (by design), but a 'scientific,' or at least mathematical, one. I'm not sure how you could 'strictly follow' it, but I do use it for giving out XP.

 

[I'm A Banana]

The CRs are more often wrong than not. They're wrong for all PC and NPC characters (either that, or they're wrong for everything else, since character and monster CRs don't match up), they're wrong for nearly all dragons, they're clearly wrong when you compare monsters from the original Monster Manual to ones from MM2 or MM3 that supposedly have the same CR, and once you get to CRs higher than 20, they might as well be pulled out of a hat. And that's just the really big obvious ones (without even getting into side stuff like Monsters of Faerun), many of the other ones are far less egregious, but still off.

Don't exaggerate. It doesn't make your case as well as you think it does.

 

[Arkhandus]

I consider it to be a decent, reasonable guideline. I generally use Challenge Ratings as-written, except when I feel they need adjusting.

I alter the CR of a critter or NPC if I think they aren't quite as powerful, or as weak, as it makes them out to be. I judge individual CRs myself when they seem a bit off (like if a foe is being encountered in especially tough or subpar circumstances, or if the party doesn't have the right kind of resources to deal with it as easily as an average party, or if the party has excessive power in some way). Sometimes I do this after an encounter, to alter the XP and treasure rewards based on how difficult it actually turned out to be, but usually I consider it beforehand.

 

[mmu1]

Don't exaggerate. It doesn't make your case as well as you think it does.

Who's exaggerating? I'm perfectly serious. They might not always be off to a huge extent(most monsters are not as absurd as, for example, the Banelar, or the Drowned), but they are incorrect more often than not.

 

[Sound of Azure]

Don't exaggerate. It doesn't make your case as well as you think it does.

Is that a rule, or a guideline?

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CR and EL are useful tools for me when DMing, but really are more of a guideline... as no chart can be completely accurate given the high variability of campaigns and playing styles in D&D groups (or even within the same group, from game to game).