Converting Creatures from Other Campaign Settings

[Cleon]

I'm not clear that weapons work that way. It looks to me like an equipped weapon adds the weapon's damage to the construct's slam (and I'm not sure how B/P/S is supposed to work). It's not like the juggernaut grows a copy of the weapon from its hand or something, at least not the way I read it.

Yes, the wording indicates the juggernaut is attacking with its arms when the pilot wields weapons, and equipped items don't change the juggernaut's appearance, only its abilities.

That's problematic though. Besides the question of damage types you brought up, what about all the other properties of equipped weapons. If it is equipped with a longspear, do its arms gain Reach without changing dimensions - how does that work? What if it's equipped with a whip or spiked armour?

I guess we don't have to worry about equipped nets if it's unable to be equipped with ranged weapons. Although there's nothing in the 3E rules to prevent the juggernaut to pick up Huge-sized weapons and wield them (including Huge missile weapons and the like), so should we specify it can only use equipped weapons?

It seems easier to assume its arms "become" the weapon in question and leave the question of how (or even whether) they alter physically unsaid.

In any case, can we agree that the weapons are effectively part of the arm, so it can't put the weapon down or have it lost or damaged by attacks on the arm (like a natural weapon), but only actions targeting the actual weapon in the arm's equipment slot affect the arm's "weapon".

 

[freyar]

For the moment, let's leave aside stuff like reach weapons and armor spikes (ugh, that even complicates armor!). I am happy with your last points --- can't be disarmed or put the weapon down (although I think there is something about if the helmsman puts down the facsimile...). For the harder cases, I guess that really depends if the juggernaut changes physically. If so, I could see armor spikes working, at least in a grapple, but reach weapons are (pardon the pun) more of a stretch. Hmmm. I'm inclined to say no to reach weapons. As for picking things up, let's say no again since the driver won't have anything to pick up to control the movement.

 

[Cleon]

For the moment, let's leave aside stuff like reach weapons and armor spikes (ugh, that even complicates armor!). I am happy with your last points --- can't be disarmed or put the weapon down (although I think there is something about if the helmsman puts down the facsimile...). For the harder cases, I guess that really depends if the juggernaut changes physically. If so, I could see armor spikes working, at least in a grapple, but reach weapons are (pardon the pun) more of a stretch. Hmmm. I'm inclined to say no to reach weapons. As for picking things up, let's say no again since the driver won't have anything to pick up to control the movement.

It'd be a lot easier if the Juggernaut's limbs just morphed into a wooden duplicate of the equipped weapon. If the Juggernaut is still hitting opponents with its slams (albeit weapon-augmented ones), how come the pilot aim the blows when they're "puppet striking" with a weapon rather than their fists?

For example, say they're using a facsimile-battleax and try to whop an opponent on the head. Shouldn't the juggernaut's blow be aimed according to where the axe-head would be rather than the hand?

Hmm... I suppose the juggernaut could be producing force-replicas of the weapons in its hands, similar to those created by a spiritual weapon spell?

Actually, that's quite a good solution - it allows us to give it weapons with Reach and other unusual properties, it plays on the "spiritual" nature of these totems, and it lets the Juggernaut damage all kinds of opponents more easily (assuming we keep the spiritual weapon trait of the attacks counting as force damage).

 

[freyar]

I like the spiritual weapon idea a lot! Let's just take the spell as a basis. We can use it for armor, too, actually, and make the AC bonus a deflection bonus.

 

[Cleon]

I like the spiritual weapon idea a lot! Let's just take the spell as a basis. We can use it for armor, too, actually, and make the AC bonus a deflection bonus.

Hmm... I'm against the deflection bonus idea. It's just begging for a munchkin to put the Juggernaut in a Huge sized suit of armour to get the stacking benefits.

I might rough out a new "spiritual weapon based draft, but I've got a lot of work today plus other things going on so there's a good chance it won't get done until later.

 

[freyar]

I was just thinking --- what if we keep the spiritual weapon mechanics but remove the force aspect, so it is sort of spiritual matter. That seems shamanistic to me. I'll try to draft up something for your perusal before you get back to this.

 

[Cleon]

I was just thinking --- what if we keep the spiritual weapon mechanics but remove the force aspect, so it is sort of spiritual matter. That seems shamanistic to me. I'll try to draft up something for your perusal before you get back to this.

I'm not seeing anything yet...

 

[Cleon]

I was just thinking --- what if we keep the spiritual weapon mechanics but remove the force aspect, so it is sort of spiritual matter.

Oh, and while I quite like the "force aspect" and the "strikes as a spell" aspect, I can see that might be too powerful for the lowish CRs I'm aiming for. The original sourcebooks are roughly 7th level, give or take a bit.

 

[freyar]

You expected me to whip something up by 4AM my time? But it looks like you're posting more again, which I will take as good news.

Equipment (Su ?????): If equipment is placed in the body cavity of a guardian juggernaut during the casting of the create guardian spell and the pilot is equipped with wooden replicas of that equipment, a copy of that equipment, sized appropriately for the juggernaut, appears with the juggernaut. For example, if a breastplate is placed in the cavity, a breastplate of spiritual energy forms around the juggernaut and grants the juggernaut a +5 armor bonus. Similarly, if a weapon in placed in a Huge juggernaut's cavity, a Huge weapon of that type appears in the juggernaut's hands. It has all the mundane and magical properties of a Huge weapon of the type placed in the juggernaut's equipment cavity......

That's a bit awkward, but maybe it's a start.

 

[Cleon]

You expected me to whip something up by 4AM my time? But it looks like you're posting more again, which I will take as good news.

Yes, things are slowly improving.

What, you're NOT usually up at 4 am. I thought you had a cat.

Equipment (Su ?????): If equipment is placed in the body cavity of a guardian juggernaut during the casting of the create guardian spell and the pilot is equipped with wooden replicas of that equipment, a copy of that equipment, sized appropriately for the juggernaut, appears with the juggernaut. For example, if a breastplate is placed in the cavity, a breastplate of spiritual energy forms around the juggernaut and grants the juggernaut a +5 armor bonus. Similarly, if a weapon in placed in a Huge juggernaut's cavity, a Huge weapon of that type appears in the juggernaut's hands. It has all the mundane and magical properties of a Huge weapon of the type placed in the juggernaut's equipment cavity......

That's a bit awkward, but maybe it's a start.

Hmm... that's a decent start. The original creature had separate slots for arms, legs, head and so forth, so I was thinking we should crib from the magic items equipment locations.

How about this:

Spiritual Equipment (Su): A guardian juggernaut's body is carved with slots that correspond to the twelve locations a humanoid can wear magic items on (head, eyes, neck, torso, body, waist, shoulders, arms, hands, ring fingers, feet). When the juggernaut is activated, a juggernaut's pilot can place equipment in these slots and equip themselves with special wooden replicas of the equipment (see Activating A Guardian Juggernaut, below, for details). A magical copy of that equipment, sized appropriately for the juggernaut, appears on the juggernaut when it activates.

For example, if a breastplate is placed in the body cavity, a breastplate of spiritual energy forms around the guardian juggernaut and grants it a +5 armor bonus. Similarly, if a +1 battleaxe is placed in a Huge juggernaut's left arm slot, a spiritual Huge +1 battleaxe appears in the juggernaut's left hand. A guardian juggernaut's spiritual equipment has the mundane and magical properties of the items placed in the juggernaut's slots. These spiritual copies of the equipment must remain in contact with the guardian juggernaut, so the juggernaut cannot use ranged weapons that leave its hands, such as a bow's arrows, a thrown javelin or a tanglefoot bag. A juggernaut can use ranged weapons it remains connected to, such as a net or harpoon on a trailing line.

A juggernaut cannot be "spiritually equipped" with more items than the pilot can equip themselves with. The magic of the guardian juggernaut allows the pilot to place items in its spiritual equipment slots that are too large to fit; allowing the pilot to equip bulky items such as a tower shield or longspear into a juggernaut whose arm slots are too small for them. Spiritually equipping an item does not change its encumbrance.

A spiritual equipment item can be attacked physically or magically, but if it is destroyed, stolen or rendered useless, the spiritual item vanishes and reappears sound and undamaged on the juggernaut pilot's next turn (a free action). A spiritual item is affected by dispel magic, a rod of cancellation and the like, but this just causes the item to vanish until the pilot's next turn. However, If one of the original items in the guardian juggernaut's spiritual equipment slots is damaged, the spiritual copy of the item is also damaged to the same degree. Removing one of the original items from its slot causes the spiritual copy to [EITHER "vanish permanently, and it can only be replaced by re-activating the juggernaut" OR "vanish (the spiritual copy reappears if the original is placed backed in its slot)"]. The wood of the slots protects the original items with hardness 5, which is in addition to any hardness the original item itself may have.