Concentration and Tumble Checks?

[Clefton Twain]

My players and I all feel that Concentration and Tumble checks as written in the D&D rules are, well, too easy to make. I know there are variants out there and we're trying to incorporate them but we haven't been able to really find a suitable substitute that is fair.

Specifically: Tumble checks to tumble past or through someone are too easy. Concentration checks to cast on the defensive also seem to be too easy to make.

An opposed roll of some sort seems appropriate to me but we seem to find flaws with them.

What rules do you guys use for Concentration and Tumble checks?

--CT

 

[IceBear]

I can't remember what house rule I wrote down to use *if* I feel the need, but I think Monte had one on his page (don't know if that was one of the variants that you saw).

BTW - this should probably be in the house rule forum.

IceBear

 

[Darklone]

Yeah, move it to houserules.

Some houserules I remember about tumble:

- Make it an opposed check against Sense Motive
- Raise the DC by the enemies BAB.
- Simply make the tumble skill check your AC
- Tumble skill check gives a Reflex save for your opponent to hit you nonetheless. (this one was optional in some official book but it's crap)

 

[IceBear]

I don't know if that last one is complete crap. Some of the main debates over the houserules was whether it should be BAB or Reflex save that would modify the DC of the tumble. Both sides seemed to have valid points (ie, a big, slow monster with a high BAB vs a quick monster with a lower BAB - which one should it be harder to tumble past?).

I think I had toyed with the idea that if you were hit while tumbling you had to make a Balance check (DC=10+damage) or falldown where you were hit.

I think the main beef people have with Tumble isn't the fact that you can avoid the AoO, it's the fact that regardless of whether or not you make the check, you still get to where you want.

IceBear

 

[Clefton Twain]

Whoops, I meant to post this in house rules, actually.

Here's how I do it.

Tumble: To tumble past someone, you make your Tumble check and they make their Reflex save. Success=no AoO. Failure=AoO but you end up where you wanted (the same as running through their threatened area, which I think is fair). If tumbling through their square, you make Tumble check, they make Reflex save + 10. This is where my party feels it's unfair whereas I'm not sure it is unfair. It should be more difficult to Tumble *through* their square.

Concentration: Here's how I'd *like* to do it. You are threatened and you cast a spell. You make a Concentration check and raise the DC according to their BAB. So if you cast a 5th-level spell, your DC is spell level + their BAB. If you fail, they get an AoO. If they hit, you make a Concentration check of 10 + spell level + damage taken to get the spell off.

It's also been suggested that you make your Concentration check vs. their Reflex save + spell level. This pretty much means that the best fighters will never ever hit except on a roll of 20, whereas the best rogue will always hit except with a roll of 1. I don't know if either of these is fair or unfair since, even if the rogue *does* get an AoO, he/she may not even hit anyway whereas, if a fighter does, he/she probably will.

--CT

 

[IceBear]

Yeah, I *think* that was the Concentration check house rule I remember = DC=Normal DC+BAB of creatures threatening you.

IceBear

 

[Kershek]

We do tumble and concentration checks opposed by an attack roll by the opponent. If the opponent succeeds, he gets an AoO. If you try to tumble through the opponent's square he gets +10 to his check.

Simple and yet effective. This makes a tumble past a kobold *much* different than a tumble past a fire giant.

We don't like using reflex saves because it doesn't scale properly. We don't like using BAB because it's too much work to look up a particular creature's BAB and calculate it. It's much simpler just to use their attack roll.

 

[IceBear]

Yeah, that was one that I've seen too. I can see it actually being easier to tumble past a fire giant though, which was why the Reflex save side has a good point too.

I can't remember which one I wrote down (probably both) so I'm not sure which one I would use.

IceBear

 

[Legildur]

Our two groups have been quite happy with the following variant:

Tumble past opponent: DC15 - make roll. If successful, then add Tumble skill modifier (less Dex bonus, but including synergies etc) to your AC. Opponent still gets AOO regardless, just the AC increases if tumbled successfully.

We take the Dex bonus out of the modifier as otherwise you'd be counting it twice for AC.

Same thing for Concentration checks when casting on the defensive, opponent still gets an AOO, but AC increases by skill modifier (less Con bonus) on a successful check.

But I will definitely be adding IceBear's variant that if hit by tumble then must make balance check or be stopped in your tracks!! I like that (and it's my halfling Rogue 9 that makes the most use of Tumble).

 

[dkilgo]

Our two groups have been quite happy with the following variant:

Tumble past opponent: DC15 - make roll. If successful, then add Tumble skill modifier (less Dex bonus, but including synergies etc) to your AC. Opponent still gets AOO regardless, just the AC increases if tumbled successfully.

We take the Dex bonus out of the modifier as otherwise you'd be counting it twice for AC.

Same thing for Concentration checks when casting on the defensive, opponent still gets an AOO, but AC increases by skill modifier (less Con bonus) on a successful check.

But I will definitely be adding IceBear's variant that if hit by tumble then must make balance check or be stopped in your tracks!! I like that (and it's my halfling Rogue 9 that makes the most use of Tumble).

I like both yours and IceBears. Thanks I will have to try them.