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Can WotC be forgiven?

Matt Thomason

Adventurer
The OGL 1.0a and OGL 1.1 both have giant black spots on them at this point. I almost think that it would be better if the OGL 1.0a was revoked, maybe at a pre-established, public date in the future. Instead of dancing around the OGL 1.0a and hoping that "irrevocable" gets added, let it die. At this point, trying to preserve the OGL 1.0a feels like trying to preserve a toxic marriage. Let WotC go its way with OGL 2.0 and let the rest of the community go its own way with ORC, CC, or whatever other licenses they choose to use.

It really is something of a quandry, because from a 3PP PoV, it's increasingly likely they will move away from the OGL after this for fear of WotC trying to throw their weight around again in future.
However, there are 20+ years of materials licensed under the OGL, in a tangled spiderweb of rights to seperate out if you want to publish them under any other license. For arguments sake, lets say I released a product in 2010 that referenced ten other OGL works, attributing them all correctly under section 15. I cannot unilaterally re-release that product today under ORC, because I do not have the right to release the other ten works I reused under OGL under the ORC license without the permissison of the original ten works owners. Assuming I cannot simply call those ten other publishers and get them to re-license under ORC, I now have to excise those parts that were not 100% my own work - which could prove difficult in actually remembering what those parts were (Was it this spell here? What about that monster there? Is this Feat one of mine? Perhaps I did something as simple as reusing an attack type from someone else's monster for one of mine) , and involve going through the entire text with a fine toothcomb to sort that out (because chances are I do not have a neatly annotated source file with every block of text backreferenced to its original source - something I actually do try to do nowadays, but didn't ten years ago) Which means it's far simpler for me to just leave that old product as-is, under the OGL, and only use ORC moving forwards. This means, of course, that my original work remains closed to reuse by ORC publishers - including myself.

Not every product is this complex, of course - many depend on nothing else, or just a small number of works that they know they can get relicensed to them under the ORC for reuse. But many are complex, referencing large numbers of OGL works in section 15, and the problem is that those are potentially lost for reuse in future ORC works because we can't rely on getting ORC licencing for every single dependency, or having the time to go through and remove those dependencies.

The point I think I'm trying to make here, is that it's always a simple binary "OGL or ORC" decision. It is a binary decision, but by no means simple. Some works will remain locked into only being usable under the OGL, even if their creator wishes otherwise, due to the interdependencies on other works. We've spent 20+ years under the assumption that the OGL 1.0a will be around forever, without a single threat of it ever disappearing, so we were fine building that interdependent spiderweb of collaborative work. Now we're suddenly confronted with a threat (whether legal or simply through WotC throwing its weight around in ways we don't have the resources to fight) that it could, and face a choice of whether to continue and hope we're okay, or throw away much of that 20+ year legacy of collaborative effort to start over with brand-new ORC-licensed works written completely from scratch.

I also think it's almost inevitable that some people will not take the necessary care and attention, and that some rights will get trampled on as some publishers try to redo past works under ORC. Probably a relatively small number, but the sheer amount of works involved and the fact there are still people that publish under the OGL without a full understanding of what it does and does not permit, means it's going to happen somewhere.

Personally, I do not think it worth trying to republish the majority of those existing OGL works (and I mostly mean the 4-8 page shorts by numerous 3PPs here), as it's far too much bother for what is likely to be only a small number of sales. But that does mean they will be lost to the ORC community.
 

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In 10 years, very few people will care. In 20, a whole generation won't even know beyond the shouts of a few old guard. They just have to keep up with trends and not get too stagnant like some companies do.

I'm not happy about it, but that's the way things tend to go.
 

Aldarc

Legend
It really is something of a quandry, because from a 3PP PoV, it's increasingly likely they will move away from the OGL after this for fear of WotC trying to throw their weight around again in future.
However, there are 20+ years of materials licensed under the OGL, in a tangled spiderweb of rights to seperate out if you want to publish them under any other license. For arguments sake, lets say I released a product in 2010 that referenced ten other OGL works, attributing them all correctly under section 15. I cannot unilaterally re-release that product today under ORC, because I do not have the right to release the other ten works I reused under OGL under the ORC license without the permissison of the original ten works owners. Assuming I cannot simply call those ten other publishers and get them to re-license under ORC, I now have to excise those parts that were not 100% my own work - which could prove difficult in actually remembering what those parts were (Was it this spell here? What about that monster there? Is this Feat one of mine? Perhaps I did something as simple as reusing an attack type from someone else's monster for one of mine) , and involve going through the entire text with a fine toothcomb to sort that out (because chances are I do not have a neatly annotated source file with every block of text backreferenced to its original source - something I actually do try to do nowadays, but didn't ten years ago) Which means it's far simpler for me to just leave that old product as-is, under the OGL, and only use ORC moving forwards. This means, of course, that my original work remains closed to reuse by ORC publishers - including myself.

Not every product is this complex, of course - many depend on nothing else, or just a small number of works that they know they can get relicensed to them under the ORC for reuse. But many are complex, referencing large numbers of OGL works in section 15, and the problem is that those are potentially lost for reuse in future ORC works because we can't rely on getting ORC licencing for every single dependency, or having the time to go through and remove those dependencies.

The point I think I'm trying to make here, is that it's always a simple binary "OGL or ORC" decision. It is a binary decision, but by no means simple. Some works will remain locked into only being usable under the OGL, even if their creator wishes otherwise, due to the interdependencies on other works. We've spent 20+ years under the assumption that the OGL 1.0a will be around forever, without a single threat of it ever disappearing, so we were fine building that interdependent spiderweb of collaborative work. Now we're suddenly confronted with a threat (whether legal or simply through WotC throwing its weight around in ways we don't have the resources to fight) that it could, and face a choice of whether to continue and hope we're okay, or throw away much of that 20+ year legacy of collaborative effort to start over with brand-new ORC-licensed works written completely from scratch.

I also think it's almost inevitable that some people will not take the necessary care and attention, and that some rights will get trampled on as some publishers try to redo past works under ORC. Probably a relatively small number, but the sheer amount of works involved and the fact there are still people that publish under the OGL without a full understanding of what it does and does not permit, means it's going to happen somewhere.

Personally, I do not think it worth trying to republish the majority of those existing OGL works (and I mostly mean the 4-8 page shorts by numerous 3PPs here), as it's far too much bother for what is likely to be only a small number of sales. But that does mean they will be lost to the ORC community.
It sounds like grandfather clause would help immensely for a lot of this.
 

Matt Thomason

Adventurer
It sounds like grandfather clause would help immensely for a lot of this.

It would. I would hope that at least some publishers will release a blanket permission that all their published OGL contributions can be assumed to be dual-licensed under ORC. That still doesnt cover dependent works their work may have used (hence why I use "contributions"), but the more publishers that issue that permission, the more likely we can take an OGL work and tick off every single entry in its section 15 as "also cleared for ORC".

Of course, that still leaves ONE entry in most cases, that we know there will not be permission for, and that one will require some careful thought to work around ;)
 
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EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Frankly, the most hilarious thing about their recent non-pology response is that, by their own admission, it paints WotC in an extremely, incredibly unflattering light. And it does so for one very simple, specific reason.

"It also will not include the license back provision that some people were afraid was a means for us to steal work. That thought never crossed our minds." (Emphasis added.)

This was very clearly the actual legal effect of the statements contained in the license--that WotC could republish literally any content licensed under their proposed "O"GL 1.1 without needing to give payment or get permission. Since this was so obviously the effect of the license as written, the claim that "that thought never crossed [their] minds" implies one of two things. Either they (and their legal counsel) were so incompetent that they could not perceive that this was a consequence of the language they were using, and thus should not be trusted to write such an important document...or they're straight-up lying to us about what their intent was, and thus they should not be trusted to write such an important document.

Like, I don't think I've ever seen a corporation so blatantly skewer themselves on their own "stupid or evil" dilemma before, but there you have it. Either they were too shortsighted to see how horrible this proviso was, or they totally did see it and they're straight-up lying about not seeing it. That's just...I guess admitting stupidity is better than admitting ill intent, but not by much!
 

I already have, as soon as people started bringing out pitchforks and torches. Then I realized, that the other side is not better. Different but not better.

Maybe better at bringing the community behind them.

I hate all that pitchfork and torches and never forgive.
That does not make the world a better place.

Making statements and fight for a better world is. But blowing things out of proportions and even miststeps that are taken back still result in unredeemable offenses is too much.

That retoric is what poisions everything today. Is it clicks, is it voters. You donvt go after the issues but the people behind it. 2 dimensional. For or against. Evil or good.

Game of Thrones should have told you, that depending on which side you are of a story, things can look good or evil and most probably it is neither.
 

Matt Thomason

Adventurer
"It also will not include the license back provision that some people were afraid was a means for us to steal work. That thought never crossed our minds." (Emphasis added.)

This was very clearly the actual legal effect of the statements contained in the license--that WotC could republish literally any content licensed under their proposed "O"GL 1.1 without needing to give payment or get permission. Since this was so obviously the effect of the license as written, the claim that "that thought never crossed [their] minds" implies one of two things. Either they (and their legal counsel) were so incompetent that they could not perceive that this was a consequence of the language they were using, and thus should not be trusted to write such an important document...or they're straight-up lying to us about what their intent was, and thus they should not be trusted to write such an important document.

I think it's that the people there at the time it was written knew exactly what it meant (as did those of us who worked with the OGL from the start) - anyone can use anyone else's contributions that are marked as Open Game Content. We can use WotCs, they can also use ours, we can all use each other's. 23 years ago it was all pretty clear to all parties involved.

However, those people are gone, and between today's management and the people writing the social media posts they're saying whatever sounds like it'll go down best with the audience without worrying too much about inconvenient things like facts. They may be outright lying intentionally, or they might simply be clueless as to why the OGL was created. Still, like you say, there's strong indicators that we cannot trust them today like we did back then.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
I think it's that the people there at the time it was written knew exactly what it meant (as did those of us who worked with the OGL from the start) - anyone can use anyone else's contributions that are marked as Open Game Content. We can use WotCs, they can also use ours, we can all use each other's. 23 years ago it was all pretty clear to all parties involved.

However, those people are gone, and between today's management and the people writing the social media posts they're saying whatever sounds like it'll go down best with the audience without worrying too much about inconvenient things like facts. They may be outright lying intentionally, or they might simply be clueless as to why the OGL was created. Still, like you say, there's strong indicators that we cannot trust them today like we did back then.
I mean, "clueless or villainous" isn't much off from what I said above. And the new stuff is written in such a way that, well, at the very least there's a HUGE cloud of ambiguity about what the term "content" means (because it doesn't specify open content, just "content" that is under this new license.) And it's sure as heck not the case that WotC lets everyone use literally anything that THEY publish under whatever license, hence the existence of Product Identity stuff.
 

Matt Thomason

Adventurer
I mean, "clueless or villainous" isn't much off from what I said above. And the new stuff is written in such a way that, well, at the very least there's a HUGE cloud of ambiguity about what the term "content" means (because it doesn't specify open content, just "content" that is under this new license.) And it's sure as heck not the case that WotC lets everyone use literally anything that THEY publish under whatever license, hence the existence of Product Identity stuff.
Yes, the new license appears to be a mess of contradictions and vagueness (to put it politely) in the form we've seen it.

The original one was always viewed as being quite clear, in as much as a legal document can be, defining quite understandably what the terms "Open Game Content" and "Product Identity" meant and how you could and could not use them.
 

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