D&D General Baldur's Gate 3 Hates Religion (Spoilers)

[Rystefn]

I meeeeean...

Is it really THAT HARD to get to go to Sharess' domain whether you've got an invitation or not? They probably won't even realize you're not supposed to be there once you're fully immersed in the goings on in that place.

Can you do planar travel under your own power? If yes, it's easy to get in. If no, then it's a lot harder. Once you're on the right plane and in the vicinity of the city on that plane, yeah, it's probably literally the easiest party to gatecrash there ever was. But you do actually have to get there first.

 

[Shardstone]

It occurs to me that reading this, that the gods may have little agency. If the planar location dictate alignment that is a restriction on the gods and celestial beings. There is some evidence of this, consider Zariel becoming lawful evil on conquering Avernus, or Graz'zt in the Abyss. Also the gods may be refective of the beliefs of their followers.
So attempting to effect change by accension to godhood is a trap. Once a god the only way to regain agency would be to lose one's worshipers and not to be bound to any outer planar location.

This is basically how it happens in Elden Ring with Queen Marika, the Eternal. You become a god, you're trapped by the idea of divinity. You lose all agency. Can anyone truly blame Lolth for what she's done? Is she not being continuously poisoned by both the Abyss and the curse placed on her by Corellon? If souls become lemures in Hell, then the archdevils themselves are styx-poisoned souls compelled by the reality they dwell in to do the evils they do.

An interesting idea. Maybe what we need to kill is the planes themselves???

 

[Steampunkette]

When you play an RPG, do you want to look at the gods and pantheon from a modern perspective or do you want to get into the heads of characters who living in a very different place from your modern lives?

Yes. Also No.

Hope that helps!

More seriously: This is me making a random post on a forum about the setting and the story as the game told it. When I play a character who is religious (or in a setting where eternal torment is sincerely on the table) I roleplay the character based on the information they have, independent of my external perspective.

More or less.

Though just like I don't wanna play in a setting with boatloads of transphobia and homophobia, I'd rather not play in a setting where the gods are so awful and upsetting that I don't enjoy myself.

So there's always going to be a balance point between roleplay and modern perspective 'cause there's only so far I -want- to suspend my own perspective. Y'know?

 

[Leatherhead]

Well, I keep hearing how great the game is, but then whenever I hear anything about the story, I'm left cold with disinterest. I've been tired for years now of games & stories where the whole world is in danger and some Ultimate Sacrifice is necessary to avert the apocalypse—especially one that defies the logic of the setting or setup. Maybe some of the 17,000 or so endings I hear about don't require that to "win", though!

The subtext the game is that you don't want to make the obvious sacrifice. Either with turning yourself into a mindflayer, gale detonating his nuke, letting one of the would-be gods ascend to solve your problem for you, or to paraphrase Orpheus himself: "You should have just woke me up and let me kill all of you before this got out of hand!"

I want to live is both the theme song of the party and the romance theme for the game for this reason.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

...

Under your clothes you're just as naked as the rest of us! Down with the tyranny of having to wear pants!

The only issue I have with this, I live in Ireland and it is cold and damp. I am, or used to be a red head. So I am definitely wearing something. Not so bothered about the pants.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

This is basically how it happens in Elden Ring with Queen Marika, the Eternal. You become a god, you're trapped by the idea of divinity. You lose all agency. Can anyone truly blame Lolth for what she's done? Is she not being continuously poisoned by both the Abyss and the curse placed on her by Corellon? If souls become lemures in Hell, then the archdevils themselves are styx-poisoned souls compelled by the reality they dwell in to do the evils they do.

An interesting idea. Maybe what we need to kill is the planes themselves???

Or do the alignments change based on changes to the conception of them?

 

[ProfessorDetective]

I always get a chuckle out of Agamemnon's prayer to the gods as he's offering them a sacrifice in The Iliad. He starts out with Zeus, mentions a few other gods, and when he gets to the end says something like, "And to any other god we didn't mention, apologies, but this is for you too." I played in a campaign and the DM got a chuckle when he looked at my character sheet where I listed "As needed" under deity. It wasn't a joke, my character prayed to the appropriate god at the appropriate time. Is it time to harvest? I'm praying to the god of harvest. Is a bad storm coming? I'm praying to whatever god is most appropriate.

Religion has never played a big part in any D&D campaign I've ever run. The cleric and paladin might do things in the name of religion, but other than that it's pretty much a non-issue in most of my games. Religion ought to be something that motivates people like it has in real life. But D&D is oddly secular in many ways.

Reminds me of Beni from The Mummy. When he thinks Imhotep is about to kill him, he starts rattling off Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, and Jewish prayers hoping SOMEBODY will listen. The Jewish one actually works, in a sense. Also a bit in Constantine, where one of John's exorcism tools is a tape recording of himself reciting his go-to exorcism spell in a few dozen languages.

 

[ProfessorDetective]

I wonder what y'all'd think of the deities I've got lined up for the Sunset Riders setting...

Liberty, Justice, Prosperity, Unity, and Truth as manifest virtues who spend all their time protecting the world from horrors in the outer dark. Their religion teaches morality as the best way to live your life and after you perish you go to them in the afterlife. Once there, they use the power of your soul to help protect the world 'til you're almost spent... then reincarnate you back onto the planet to live and grow once more. During the time in the afterlife you're surrounded in leisure and comfort until it's time to go back. Lather, rinse, repeat. Being moral strengthens your soul so you've got more juice in the afterlife and it takes longer before you have to be reincarnated.

But then there's Glory. Former virtue turned vice. Her divine realm now the setting's Hell. Her devils make deals to secure souls for her to use to protect the world, and she uses them up -entirely- in order to protect the world. No reincarnation, you're just -gone- forever.

Two other religions exist in the setting in the form of an animism religion that seeks to create more souls by having mortals invest souls into animals, plants, and geographic features, and an ancestor/folk hero religion which makes some souls way stronger even if they're -already- in the afterlife.

Because all the setting's spiritual entities are in the same battle against the monsters in the outer dark. They just go about fighting it in different ways.

(Worth noting, only the highest people in the church of Virtue know the truth of reincarnation and don't tell anyone. The animists teach it as a part of their doctrine, and the folk-hero/ancestor worshippers don't know it's what happens)

You post about this setting anywhere and/or have plans to publish it? You've got me hooked. Always love a good Weird Western.

On that note: Firearms, yay or nay?

Edit: Nevermind, found it myself. https://www.enworld.org/threads/western-fantasy-fantasy-western-campaign-setting-thoughts.701889/

 

[Steampunkette]

You post about this setting anywhere and/or have plans to publish it? You've got me hooked. Always love a good Weird Western.

On that note: Firearms, yay or nay?

Edit: Nevermind, found it myself. https://www.enworld.org/threads/western-fantasy-fantasy-western-campaign-setting-thoughts.701889/

I'm glad you're interested! And yes, I plan to publish -eventually-.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Or, at least, it wants all of it's characters to turn against their deities...

Don't get me wrong! Shadowheart going from Evil Sharran to Good Selunite is totally reasonable and fair. It's certainly an interesting direction to take the character and provides an excellent story. Not harshing on it, remotely.

But both Lae'zel -and- Gale face similar conundrums.

Lae'zel finds out her god is a lying jerk who is just using her and has no intention of ever doing anything except keeping her people controlled in an iron fist. She turns -against- her god and turns to a different 'Religion' in the Cult of the Comet. And then her new god dies and she must take up his role to defeat Vlaakith without his 'Godly' power to fight back against the Illithids through super-powered psionic ability that apparently comes from being tadpoled? I say that 'cause at no point does any mind flayer in the game tadpole Orpheus, nor do we hand him a tadpole. He just points at his head and becomes a ghaik 'cause there's a tadpole apparently in his head that has been there since the first Grand Design. My guess is that he got tadpoled in Mother Gith's time but managed to use his vast psionic powers to just tell it "No" for millennia on end when it tried to press him into ceremorphosis. 'Cause once he points at his own head the process is practically instantaneous.

Meanwhile Mystra wants Gale to go supernova and kill himself to destroy the Elder Brain/Nether Brain... which also destroys the souls of every "True Soul" in the world because their tadpoles will be unleashed and immediately press into ceremorphosis. The resulting bloodshed will engulf the Sword Coast, if not all of Faerun, in a massive Mind Flayer invasion. Seriously! Mind Flayers are CR 7 entities! Yeah, there's level 60 characters like Elminster and whomstever else wants to help in the fight, but Baldur's Gate is essentially screwed in the final battle sequence until you tell the brain to nuke every tadpole and that, somehow, causes all the Mind Flayers to also become weaklings for no apparent reason that are immediately mopped up by the populace. Like some rando with a pitchfork is suddenly able to instantly kill any Illithid 'cause cutscene logic.

Similarly Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul are the bad guys so screw them but also Jergal's chosen, Withers, basically handwaves GODS to dismiss them after the Epilogue sequence. The Dead God who doesn't have followers is the only deity worth his salt in the entire setting.

Meanwhile, you've got Karlach. Karlach specifically -doesn't- have a god. She expects to wander the Fugue Plane 'til her soul decays and dissolves into nothingness. In a setting where eternal happiness and reward can be secured by picking a god, giving them your worship, and being a good person (depending on the god, of course)... she chooses to be utterly and permanently destroyed in the Afterlife.

PRESUMABLY so do Astarion, Wyll, and Minthara. All of whom either never reference their religious beliefs or in Minthara's case actively -reject- their previous religious belief.

The only neutral example of religious faith we get in the game is Halsin with Silvanus... but also because he's not a cleric or Silvanus' former lover, Silvanus is an -utter- nonentity in the story. Oh, sure, the Druids in the Grove -reference- Silvanus, and his teachings. And there's a magical Idol that gives you nature proficiency... but... where's he when the Illithid look to destroy the natural order? Where was he when the Shadow Curse of Shar destroyed the town and wilds near Moonrise? Where are the druids trying to break the curse that's been there for a hundred freaking years instead of hiding in one single grove from a group of goblins?

Seriously. Goblins. A grove of Druids that can wild shape into Bears and stuff for a boatload of temporary HP are afraid of Goblins. Also the ARCHDRUID is a level 1 weakling who gets rolled by goblins...

Anyway. Yeah. Only Selune is kind of a positive example of divinity in the setting through Aylin and Isobel. And even then it's only 'cause she's pampering her daughter and her daughter's wife.

Still doesn't help with the Mind Flayers, though.

The gods shouldn’t be “helping” with the mindflayers.

Thats why they grant powers to mortals.