[Adventure] Trouble in Moonwatch (Judge: THB) - Part II

[KarinsDad]

[sblock=OOC]
Feall isn't a squishy and neither is River. They both have decent ACs. Sheeva and Pok are squishy.

The last encounter was a tough one where PCs were getting Dazed and knocked Prone. That's +2 to hit for the NPCs. And there were a few rounds there where renau1g was rolling well in IC and the PCs weren't.

On top of that, River rarely attacks. Compared to a more normal party, that means that our dpr is about 15% less per round. That means that every encounter is 15% longer (~1 round) and the PCs take 15% more damage.

And finally, River, Pok, and Sheeva rarely get into combat. That means that 2 of the PCs are taking about 75+% of the NPC attacks. This is the real culprit. Regardless of squishiness, River, Pok, and Sheeva have to spend at least a few more rounds than they typically would up close every encounter and spread out the healing surge usage, otherwise the vast majority of attacks are (like in this last encounter) going to be against Feall and Val.

When Kortauhk was part of the group, 3 PCs were taking the majority of the damage: Feall, Val, and Kortauhk. Now that this is down to 2 PCs taking the majority of the damage, the other 3 PCs have to step up and pull a few extra attacks each encounter off of the front 2 PCs and onto the back 3 PCs. This will result in more overall PC damage, but it will also more equally distribute damage over the party and the chances of the front 2 PCs going down decreases. River only has so many Encounter healing options and typically, we do not want him using Daily healing options too often.

The other aspect here is resources. The party probably has between items and powers, 18 Daily powers per day. We could easily afford to use 2 or 3 of them every single encounter. Each player should probably use a Daily power every other encounter on average. We also have 5 action points at the start of the day. We could easily afford to use 2 action points every single encounter as well. We need to make sure that we are not hoarding our resources to the overall detriment of the group. We have to take foes down quickly and since River rarely attacks, that means that the other 4 PCs have to not only focus fire their attacks against individual NPCs, we also have to do this with action points and Daily powers early in each encounter (not necessarily round one, but once we are sure that a given foe is not a minion). We have to change the action economy into an advantage for the PCs and we need to do it quickly each encounter. Otherwise, we'll run into more encounters where Val and Faell get whaled on heavily.

Another issue we have is that the vast majority of our encounters have been out in the open where the NPCs can react to protected PCs. We need to start controlling terrain somehow if we are going to be fighting in larger areas where Defender powers and zones can easily be avoided. The only way we have to do this is with PC positioning. For example, Faell, Val, and River in an arc-like front line and Sheeva and Pok behind them. Not with Sheeva to the NW, Pok to the SE, Faell to the E, Val to the W, and River to the S. We've got to stay closer together and in a controlled fashion, not spread out all over the map if we are going to fight in these wide open terrains.
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[Velmont]

[SBLOCK=OOC]There is one thing I would like to poitn out. Even if River have a decent AC, he is a ranged character and have no option to melee, so he can hardly stay on the front line for long.

Second thing, if River is at the front line and start to heal, he will go down a lot more quickly. Just look at the last encounter, once River was pointed as the Super-Healer of the group, he has been down in almost a round.

I agree everyone need to take his share of damage, but River can easily put on feet anyone. But only Val can quickly put back, at condition River still have his second wind.

Finally, renaug1 have killed a character of every source except Divine. River is on his black list. He told me so and already killed Calisto, my Psion. [/SBLOCK]

 

[Maidhc O Casain]

[sblock=OOC]I hadn't thought about Korthauk being part of the group until recently, and the fact that the damage was spread to one more character.

Three things to think about regarding Feall:

1. He gets a damage bonus when he hits enemies who don't have adjacent allies. 4 points a hit ain't a ton, but every little bit helps.
2. He's built to move around. He's actually at his best when everyone (allies and foes) are a little spread out so he can take advantage of his Shadow Step, isolate foes, catch them in his Cloud of Darkness, etc. Also, many of his powers are Teleports. He's much more 'South American Guerrilla' than 'Spartan Shield Wall.'
3. Finally, every time he uses one of those Teleport powers he gets a +2 boost to his AC and Reflex, which really reinforces moving him around for me.

Note that I'm not actually opposed to what you suggested KD, but if you tactical minds can figure out a way to work Feall's strengths into the plan as well that would be very cool!

Unfortunately, this need for him to open up the field a little runs counter to the need to push/pull all of the foes into a small space to get them in an area attack. Or maybe it's fortunate, as when we can't get 'em one way we get 'em another . . . I don't know.[/sblock]

 

[CaBaNa]

Seems safe enough, Pok collects some debris, pieces of roof, floor, doorways, and begins building a small fort in a corner. He lays the detritus in what could be mistaken as a heap of rubble, leaving space enough for himself underneath.

As he crawls inside the fort, and places a piece of shingle in the entrance, Pok thinks of his sister Probably sleeping in a warm bed back in Daunton... The short wizard gets in a comfortable position and tries to be silent for the remainder of the night. Unfortunately the rubble grinds as it shifts with each breathe he takes, and the pile moves ever-so-slightly with each inhalation.


[sblock=OOC]

Rolled an 18 stealth check for rest period.


Pok has been leveled, now it's just entering the new information into the Character Sheet. I'll try to finish tonight, but we'll see what happens.

Pok will be level 6, he has 7 RP now, I'm just waiting until he has the full 10 to cash them in. Makes everything easier on me that way.
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[KarinsDad]

[SBLOCK=OOC]
There is one thing I would like to poitn out. Even if River have a decent AC, he is a ranged character and have no option to melee, so he can hardly stay on the front line for long.

Second thing, if River is at the front line and start to heal, he will go down a lot more quickly. Just look at the last encounter, once River was pointed as the Super-Healer of the group, he has been down in almost a round.

I agree everyone need to take his share of damage, but River can easily put on feet anyone. But only Val can quickly put back, at condition River still have his second wind.

Finally, renaug1 have killed a character of every source except Divine. River is on his black list. He told me so and already killed Calisto, my Psion. [/SBLOCK]

[sblock=OOC]
I run a ranged Cleric in a game I am in. He takes a 5 foot step back and does his thing. As long as River doesn't get totally swarmed, he should be ok most of the time. But if Pok, Sheeva, Faell, and River all decide that they want to hang back, especially in these wide open encounters, we will be making it harder for us to succeed, not easier.

It just doesn't make sense for Faell and River to often be hanging back that much with the type of ACs that they have. It's detrimental to the party.

I also really do not understand why you think that River will go down quickly if he is in the front rank. Val will go down faster if he is the ONLY PC in the front rank than River will go down if River is one of three PCs in the front rank. See the note below for the group positioning that I think puts River in the front rank, but still keeps him off to the side a bit so that he doesn't get over targeted.

As for renau1g heavily targeting River, I think he is pulling your leg. If River does a lot of healing early on, yes the NPCs might target him. But, the key to that is to not heal unless River has to. If a PC is hurt but not bloodied, don't reveal River's healing capabilities to the NPCs yet except maybe with Astral Seal.

I think you are overreacting to the fact that River went unconsious last encounter. How many times has River gone unconsious in the entire campaign? The reason he went unconscious is that renau1g rolled out of his butt and because Val isn't very sticky. Unconsciousness is a fact of life in hard encounters, especially if the NPCs are rolling well. Implying that it is more important for the healer to not go unconscious is not quite accurate. Every PC contributes and any one of them being out for a round weakens the entire team. The group has healing potions that can get River up and anyone in the group can do a Heal check as well. Yes, River can do it automatically and at range with a minor action, but River going unconscious is not the end of the adventure. If River would have gone done in the middle of the encounter last time instead of the end of the encounter, Sheeva would have gone over and given River a healing potion.

PS. I use a rule in the two games I run here that any PC that is stunned or unconscious immediately takes his action at the start of the PC portion of initiative. The reason for the rule is that with PBP, players typically do not stay in init order (especially if using Mal's rules) and so, stunned and unconsciousness have no teeth to them. The NPCs get ripped off due to how we typically run PBP. renau1g has told me that he plans to start using this rule, so just FYI, NOBODY wants to go unconscious.
[/sblock]

[sblock=OOC]I hadn't thought about Korthauk being part of the group until recently, and the fact that the damage was spread to one more character.

Three things to think about regarding Feall:

1. He gets a damage bonus when he hits enemies who don't have adjacent allies. 4 points a hit ain't a ton, but every little bit helps.
2. He's built to move around. He's actually at his best when everyone (allies and foes) are a little spread out so he can take advantage of his Shadow Step, isolate foes, catch them in his Cloud of Darkness, etc. Also, many of his powers are Teleports. He's much more 'South American Guerrilla' than 'Spartan Shield Wall.'
3. Finally, every time he uses one of those Teleport powers he gets a +2 boost to his AC and Reflex, which really reinforces moving him around for me.

Note that I'm not actually opposed to what you suggested KD, but if you tactical minds can figure out a way to work Feall's strengths into the plan as well that would be very cool!

Unfortunately, this need for him to open up the field a little runs counter to the need to push/pull all of the foes into a small space to get them in an area attack. Or maybe it's fortunate, as when we can't get 'em one way we get 'em another . . . I don't know.[/sblock]

[sblock=OOC]
Mowgli, this is exactly why I suggested that Val be in the middle. Faell should still do his guerrilla tactics, but he shouldn't do them that far from the party. We need to be able to take advantage of area effect PC buffs and PC zones that cut off a flank and other tactics. The concept of the party being flung out to the four corners of the map won't work with this group. A simple Daze or Immobilize will prevent a PC from going to help another PC. I'm actually envisioning the group to be in a more pentagram-like or diamond-like pattern some significant portion of the time.

. . . . . . .

. . . V . . .

. R . . . F .

. . P . S . .

. . . . . . .


. . . . . . .

. . . V . . .

. R . S . F .

. . . P . . .

. . . . . . .


. . . . . . .

. . . V . . .

. S . R . F .

. . . P . . .

. . . . . . .

Sheeva and Faell are Strikers. They should be near each other so that we can maximize the damage from them on foes. Pok should attack Sheeva's and Faell's targets as well if he is doing a more damaging or soft control power, he should attack River and Val's targets if he is doing a hard control power. Sheeva also has multiple area effect bursts and blasts which means that she should often move forward, blast, and then move back. I think Executioner's Noose is Faell's way of getting his extra +4 damage. Pull a guy into a flank position with Val (or pull a guy totally off of Val) so that the foe is not next to his allies. And if Sheeva doesn't have multiple foes she can fight, she should be Lightning Striking any foe that Faell is targeting.

Although River should be in a near front rank position, he will often have to move towards the center in order to get his area burst encounter powers working. But after doing so, he should go back and hold a flank for the rest of the group. It was much better when Korthauk was on one flank, Val was in the middle, Faell was on the other, and River could stay in the middle. But, we don't have that option anymore. Now, River needs to be holding a flank and preventing foes from flanking Val because he's the best one to do so. He's got a good AC and he can heal himself. It's not just about healing the other PCs, River can be very useful just forcing foes to not attack other PCs.

Pok should be capable of targeting from wherever. His problem is that with these wide open spaces that prevent his area effect controlling powers from actually being as helpful as they could be. The thing is, if Pok always hides, it means that the vast majority of the damage will be distributed amongst the other 4 PCs. This might not be a bad thing since Pok has the redistribute healing surge ritual which can readjust our surge resources, but if he hides a lot, the rest of us just have to be ready for the fact that we are the four that are going to get whaled on.

But, this is a team effort, not an individual one. If four of the five team members try to avoid ever getting attacked, then the last team member is going to not only receive the focus fire of the enemies, but he will also suck through healing surges very quickly. If the last encounter illustrated anything, it showed that trying to set it up so with a two PC front where two PCs get the brunt of the enemy attacks doesn't work. The damage has to be spread out over the entire group more because we are starting to run into tougher encounters where focus fire by the enemies leads to PCs going down.

The key to success in 4E is focus fire by the PCs, no focus fire by the NPCs. If most of us hang back and allow the NPCs to focus fire (and 3 of us are actually designed to do that), then one or more PCs will go down which defeats the entire purpose of focus fire. That's why Controllers are so important. If they can delay a few NPCs for a round or two, they lower the amount of focus fire the NPCs can do and give the PCs extra time to focus fire on the NPCs.

With my changes for Sheeva for level 6 (along with a retrain of a utility power that she has never ever used), she will be punishing foes a bit for attacking her. So, I have no problem with Sheeva and Faell being on one flank and tag teaming foes on that side to take them down quicker. She can afford to (and with her AC, will) get hit a few times. But we have to spread NPC damage over the PCs and we have to focus PC damage on one or a few NPCs. And that means that while Sheeva and Faell are slowly taking down foes on the one flank, River has to be holding the other flank. Course, that doesn't mean that Sheeva and Faell won't go help River if he gets into trouble. It means that we have a general formation and plan that we stick to and we adjust as necessary.
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[Maidhc O Casain]

[sblock=KD/OOC]Makes sense, KD. Or it seems to . . . I'm certainly willing to give it a try.[/sblock]

 

[EvolutionKB]

[sblock=ooc]On Val being sticky: Yes, he is not doing a good job, but part has been encounter set up, tactics and bad luck. I missed with both my encounter powers last encounter. One is a big mass mark, the other is temp hp for all. We need to remember that Val's powers revolve around enemies being around him. Slides, pushes and pulls that get more enemies in range of my effects are good. It's tough though sometimes, because I need positioning too because my oath which I rely on to hit with my encounters needs to be adjacient to only one enemy.

I leveled Val up to 9(IMO we might as well spend them if we have them). I retrained one feat for more damage, added virtous recovery to give me resist 5 when I spend a HS, and took a punishment power for my daily, and a burst power that gives att penalty. I also included a new wish list for when R1 gets around to it.[/sblock]

 

[CaBaNa]

[sblock=OOC]I'm waiting to update Pok's sheet until the 12th, the CB update will help identify all errata affecting the little guy. [/sblock]

 

[KarinsDad]

[sblock=OOC]I'm waiting to update Pok's sheet until the 12th, the CB update will help identify all errata affecting the little guy. [/sblock]

[sblock=OOC]
Why wait?

The October update is 2 pages and 1 paragraph long. It takes about 40 seconds to read through the list of game elements affected. Here's the list of things that could affect a PC and I don't think any of them affect Pok except Cunning Sneak: Warlord's Formation, Call Spirit Companion, Clockwork Precision, Cunning Sneak, Martial Ploy, Earthfriend, Blazing Offensive, Inflict Pain, Manifested Horror, Discorporate Retaliation, Elan Mental Onslaught, Anchoring Armor, Inspiring Aid.

Cunning Sneak
Page 56: In the second paragraph of the feature, replace “a move action” with “your movement.” This change updates the feature to reflect recent revisions in the Stealth rules.
If you end your movement at least 3 squares away from your starting position, you can make a Stealth check to become hidden if you have any concealment or any cover, except for cover provided by intervening allies.

The current CB already has any other errata that affects Pok or anything Pok would want to take.
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[Velmont]

[sblock=ooc]

I leveled Val up to 9(IMO we might as well spend them if we have them). I retrained one feat for more damage, added virtous recovery to give me resist 5 when I spend a HS, and took a punishment power for my daily, and a burst power that gives att penalty. I also included a new wish list for when R1 gets around to it.

River lvl 10.... tempting to try such a high level character...[/sblock]