3e, 4e, and Group Schisms

[GnomeWorks]

I'm curious.

4e seems to have polarized the community quite a bit, but I hear that 3e did the same - unfortunately, I was a bit too young to be paying attention to that kind of thing, so I have no idea as to the truth of these statements. Either way, I'm not really interested in having that discussion.

What I am interested in is if 3e caused the same kind of in-group schisms that 4e seems to be causing. Not to say that 4e-based schisms are widespread, but they certainly seem more common - to me - than 3e-based schisms.

By "group schism," I mean an event that causes an almost or complete breaking-up of the gaming group: at least one person stops playing with the group; at least one person stops playing with the group unless they do not use the schism-causing edition; or the group dissolves entirely.

Note that only difficulties that arise in a group due to the editions in question are relevant for this poll; if a person leaves a group during an edition change due to other circumstances, that doesn't count as the edition in question causing the schism.

Poll Option Descriptions
Note that the phrase "attempted to convert" is used to cover any and all circumstances under which a group would come to play the indicated edition, whether this is by a single player showing interest and attempting to sway opinion, or if the whole group is involved in the decision-making process. Any amount of consideration of converting to an edition is considered an "attempt to convert."

• Neither 3e nor 4e caused a group schism: Your group either converted to or started with 3e, which caused no difficulties. Your group has since converted to 4e, which caused no issues.
• 3e did not cause a group schism; have not tried to convert group to 4e: Your group either started with or converted to 3e, which caused no difficulties. Your group has not yet attempted to convert to 4e.
• 3e caused a group schism; have not tried to convert group to 4e: Your group attempted to convert to 3e, but suffered a group schism in attempting to do so. Your current group has not attempted to convert to 4e.
• 3e caused a group schism; 4e did not cause a group schism: Your group attempted to convert to 3e, but suffered a group schism in attempting to do so. Your current group has converted to 4e without suffering a schism.
• 3e did not cause a group schism; 4e caused a group schism: Your group either started with or converted to 3e, which did not pose any difficulties. Your group has since attempted to convert to 4e, which resulted in a group schism.
• Have not tried to convert group to 3e; 4e did not cause a group schism: Your group either did not start with or attempt to convert to 3e (you either skipped the edition entirely, or were playing some other game, or not gaming at the time). Your group has converted to 4e, which did not cause a schism.
• Have not tried to convert group to 3e; 4e caused a group schism: Your group either did not start with or attempt to convert to 3e (you either skipped the edition entirely, or were playing some other game, or not gaming at the time). Your group has attempted to convert to 4e, which caused a group schism.
• Both 3e and 4e caused a group schism: Your group attempted to convert to 3e, which caused a group schism. Your current group attempted to convert to 4e, which also caused a group schism.
• Other: You feel that the poll options inadequately describe your situation. If you select this option, please describe the events that transpired.

 

[Rechan]

I'm not sure what situation I am in. Among other things, I'm not sure what I"m going to do.

I've played about four sessions with my group. One hasn't played since 1e. One hasn't played ever (Video games and MMOs), and two are full on gaming for 20 years types.

And everyone seems to not care for the system except for me (the DM, who is a total 4e fanboy). The two life-long gamers are in the "3e is the pinnacle of gaming" types.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

I first started playing with my current group during 2nd Ed. I played Red Box and AD&D at school with a different group.

For us, 2nd to 3rd was something everyone was willing to give a go - no issues at all. We pretty quickly changed all ongoing campaigns over to 3rd. The change was I think welcome.

3rd to 3.5 was a slightly more gradual change as the books came out (although there was this weird period where we were 3.5 but some of our stuff was 3E waiting for the supplements to catch up).

3.5 to 4E was stuttered. The need to change was not that great. As I posted in another thread: In my group, there were three guys out of eight who were adamant against doing anything with 4E.

- One is still trying to get his head around 3E and so did not want to have to learn a new rule set. He does not play very often and is generally considered by our group to be quite eccentric with his varying attitudes to gaming.
- One simply refused to play, and simply does not play with our groups 4E game, but is continuing to avidly play our 3.x campaign.
- One hated the idea of being forced to suffer a new edition of the game, sampled 4E and hated it, but then had a talk with the DM, re-jigged his character (a striker) and now since he's "winning" again, he's happy with the game.

Overall we are still playing the two different versions (something we did not do with 2E to 3E). I think we will continue to do so as well - each offers something slightly different, a variation of flavour assisted by the version. Both however are enjoyable. So while this may not count as a true schism as others have had, the transitional differences from 2E to 3E and then 3E to 4E is enough for me to vote no schism 2E to 3E but a schism 3E to 4E.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[GnomeWorks]

So while this may not count as a true schism as others have had, the transitional differences from 2E to 3E and then 3E to 4E is enough for me to vote no schism 2E to 3E but a schism 3E to 4E.

You lost a player in your 4e group; that sounds like a schism to me, even if he is still playing in your 3e games.

 

[jdrakeh]

It seems that, among the players and groups I know personally, there was much more reluctance to switch from AD&D 1e and 2e to D&D 3e than there has been to switch from D&D 3x to D&D 4e.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Haven't tried to convert to 4e, no schism from 3e, though my "group" was limited at the time. If there was less issue from 2e -> 3e, it probably helped that wotc put out some booklet to help convert your characters. Pretty sure they did, I admit I don't remember back that far too well. (I only casually started playing in '98, and didn't start to really get involved until 2003).

 

[ppaladin123]

My group had one person leave when we switched to 4e. However, we had a lot of problems with him during our 3.5e games (he complained a lot about our play style, engaged in continual rules arguments, was always trying to build self-described "broken" characters, etc.). I'm pretty sure he latched onto the edition switch (and wars) as an excuse to leave and feel justified in doing so. Last we heard he found a new group to play 3.5e with and was making them miserable too. If we hadn't switched, he would have almost definitely left (or been booted out) eventually anyway...the change over to 4e was just a catalyst.

I wonder whether this happened to anyone else. If there were pre-existing, simmering tensions between players/DMs, personality conflicts, etc. in a group, an edition switch can bring these issues to the fore and cause open conflict. Ill-defined grievances can then be expressed in clear, edition-oriented language.

summary: edition switch may be an ostensible, easy to explain reason for a schism that actually has deeper, more nebulous roots.

 

[blargney the second]

Aside from a telepath psion NPC I once ran, I haven't ever seen any schisms. I play with people who just like to play.
-blarg

 

[Korgoth]

Other: No interest in 3e or 4e. We play old school editions.

 

[Shemeska]

4e would only cause a schism in that I'd be finding a different group if I was hellbent on running 4e. They'd have none of it. Not only do they not want to play it, one player actually deleted the bootleg pdf after reading it, and he has a folder of pdfs that will probably never get read yet they get disk space.

However I've seen a pretty big schism in the local gaming community between 4e zealots and 3e diehards. I recall hearing from a friend who works at one of the FLGSs that they almost had a fistfight breakout between a pushy 4e advocate and someone who wasn't interested in moving away from 3.x. I don't recall any of this sort of polarization back during the 2e-3e transition.