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D&D 3E/3.5 3.X Retrospective 19 Years in Production.

It's easy to forget how parlous a state D&D was in when 3e came along.

TSR had gone broke and been bought out, it was years and years since 2e and the company had been shambling along creating vast amounts of content - some of which was undeniably excellent - but making losses on a bunch of it. Complete book of Gnomes? The novel line had propped up the corpse for a while but the sheer volume of books by people not called Salvatore had saturated the market and then they were losing money too. And then there were the wild ideas they threw money into to turn it all around. Dragon Dice. Spellfire. Players Option.

White Wolf had taken the RPG baton and was running with it, and TSR was being left way behind. You couldn't even find anyone to play in a D&D game at my university club in 1997. It was Werewolf, or Delta Green, or Ars Magica, or WFRP.

When WotC bought out D&D, the wailing and gnashing of teeth was awesome to behold. They'd turn it into a trading card game like Magic, the story was. You'd need to buy booster packs for magic items, or to play a ranger.

And then 3e came along. And it was [drumroll] a RPG. And it chucked out some serious sacred cows, like THAC0 and negative armour class, and death magic saving throws, so it's not like the designers were being overcautious. All of a sudden, feats were a thing. And skills were suddenly a thing. and dwarves could be wizards, and there were no racial level limits any more, and anyone could multiclass, and half-orcs were back, and metamagic was a thing. And the OGL - sure, it's not exactly a part of the system, but it came with the package and that was daring beyond belief and it changed the industry forever - and it was motivated by the genuine fact that D&D had damn near died with TSR and this was the 3e devs doing their damndest to make sure that never, ever happened again.

It's hard to overestimate how revolutionary 3e was - not from a game design point of view in general, though it DID clarify, systematise, and streamline a whole lot or messy legacy AD&Disms while actually giving players more choices in how to design characters. But in terms of actually keeping D&D a real functional live hobby, and even keeping fantasy gaming as a whole going when WoD and the whole modern paranormal thing was increasingly making the running. And it proved so popular it was still selling in truckloads when 4e came along, and its variant continued doing to after 4e came along.

It had problems, sure. It got bloated with supplements, sure, and the buff-stacking metagame and poor high-level maths really should have been caught in playtesting, but any system where player options proliferate to the VAST degree they did in 3/3.5, and which offers players so many character design choice points, is going to have scope for players to start up optimisation games. It's not like 3e invented min-maxing, though the sheer options it provided allowed the result of that to be more noticable, especially alongside the rise of the internet and forums like this or the old WotC boards, which allowed anyone with a 56.6k modem to dump all sorts of net optimisation builds on their poor unsuspecting GMs.

But i don't think it's even a slight exaggeration to say that 3e saved D&D as a hobby from the fate of, say, Avalon Hill wargames. And there's a hell of a lot of 3e in the DNA of 5e.

So a little bit of respect for the dear departed is in order i reckon. I played an awful lot of 3e, and had a great time, though i wouldn't go back to it if 5e was still an option. But in the context of the history of D&D, it was one of the greatest monumental successes, and deserves to be remembered as such.
 
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DammitVictor

Trust the Fungus
Supporter
I got caught up in 3.X and the charop culture for years and... after losing my taste for D&D for awhile and coming back to it fresh, I went for PF1 instead of 4e.

I am very enthusiastic about the quantity and quality of content available for PF1, especially third-party content, but the system itself leaves a lot to be desired and I've been working on a whole bunch of largely unappreciated fixes to get it working the way I want it to, based on years of playing TSR D&D.
 

Catolias

Explorer
I came back to the game when 3.0 launched and moved onto 3.5 when it was released. I’ve played with the same group for 17 of those 19 years, with one or two additions and losses here and there to the team

I’ve played 5e with my kids, which is fine, but for the sheer openness in options, 3.x still wins out in the D&D-verse.

We’re all moving to Pf2 but only once we wrap up our current 3.5 game. 3.x will continue to provide fond memories and I suspect we will even dabble with it again for nostalgia.
 


teitan

Legend
People have claimed and "proven" how system X is broken since the good old days. 3e, when run with previous styles in mind, was a great upgrade of that classic AD&D/D&D feel. It's why companies like Necromancer Games/Frog God Games were able to make some really great old school adventures for it. 3.5 became a bronking buck though and escaped those default expectations. Yeah you could build some seriously broken stuff in 3e but you had to break the rules to do it. There was a thread on the WOTC boards back during 3.0 where someone built this monster PC to prove how broken 3e was but had also applied templates to the character and various & sundry prestige classes, broke the multiclass rules. It was an interesting thought experiment but no one was ever going to build that character for play and I don't think any campaign would have led to such an abomination.

3.0 is my favorite version of 3.x. It was developed just enough to not get out of hand and was incompatible enough with 3.5 that it stands out as its own game really. The paperback splats were decent, the FRCS was excellent! The Fiend Folio and Book of Vile Darkness introduced a lot of lore elements that would become core lore elements. It also didn't get a chance to boat like a swamp troll. I'd still run a 3.0 campaign if people would play it but it's gotten a nasty reputation that is unjustified. It isn't all that different from the sacred 3.5.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
People have claimed and "proven" how system X is broken since the good old days. 3e, when run with previous styles in mind, was a great upgrade of that classic AD&D/D&D feel. It's why companies like Necromancer Games/Frog God Games were able to make some really great old school adventures for it. 3.5 became a bronking buck though and escaped those default expectations. Yeah you could build some seriously broken stuff in 3e but you had to break the rules to do it. There was a thread on the WOTC boards back during 3.0 where someone built this monster PC to prove how broken 3e was but had also applied templates to the character and various & sundry prestige classes, broke the multiclass rules. It was an interesting thought experiment but no one was ever going to build that character for play and I don't think any campaign would have led to such an abomination.

3.0 is my favorite version of 3.x. It was developed just enough to not get out of hand and was incompatible enough with 3.5 that it stands out as its own game really. The paperback splats were decent, the FRCS was excellent! The Fiend Folio and Book of Vile Darkness introduced a lot of lore elements that would become core lore elements. It also didn't get a chance to boat like a swamp troll. I'd still run a 3.0 campaign if people would play it but it's gotten a nasty reputation that is unjustified. It isn't all that different from the sacred 3.5.

3.0 had several nutty things.

Haste and harm. Haste turned up early enough to be a pain.

Several broken prestige classes. Shadow Adept and Red Wizard from memory.

Persistent Spell as well more borjed than 3.5.

Those were some of the big offenders.
 

teitan

Legend
And it proved so popular it was still selling in truckloads when 4e came along, and its variant continued doing to after 4e came along.
I think you're overestimating that. 3.5 had reached market saturation and was experiencing rapidly diminishing sales by the time the 4e launch was announced. Pathfinder was partially successful because it's changes were more along the lines of what people were expecting or hoping for 4e to be, small incremental changes but still recognizable as D&D whereas 4e was very much not recognizable as D&D while still retaining the flavor. 3.0 saved D&D and market glut resulted in a very short, comparably to what it could have been, for 3.5.
 

teitan

Legend
3.0 had several nutty things.

Haste and harm. Haste turned up early enough to be a pain.

Several broken prestige classes. Shadow Adept and Red Wizard from memory.

Persistent Spell as well more borjed than 3.5.

Those were some of the big offenders.

And I was fine with them as they weren't all that far of from previous editions and Shadow Adept and Red Wizards are setting specific.
 

3.0 had several nutty things.

Haste and harm.
Ironically enough, 3.0's Harm (while certainly a very badly balanced spell in the context of the game it was in) was arguably less powerful than the reversed form of AD&D's Heal spell, because it had exactly the same effect (target loses all but 1d4 hp) but without offering a saving throw. Of course because hp totals were higher in 3e and because there was the option of metamagic etc to increase the spells' reach, and I think 3e clerics could cast it at lower level than then the line becomes a bit more blurry, but it's always struck me as a bit ironic that one of the big poster children for how broken 3.0 was, was basically exactly the same as it had been for many years in AD&D, during which time (apparently) it wasn't such a big deal.

3.0's 'nutty' harm only copped it because it was one of the few sore points in a system that otherwise was balanced beyond the dreams of what had gone before.
 


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