ruleslawyer
Registered User
Victim said:
Pardon? That makes pretty much no sense according to the WotC monster design guidelines. Monsters of a given CR are meant to be balanced against PCs, not against grunts far below their CR.
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D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5e] Damage Reduction
- Thread starter Kraedin
- Start date
Pardon? That makes pretty much no sense according to the WotC monster design guidelines. Monsters of a given CR are meant to be balanced against PCs, not against grunts far below their CR.
Merlion
First Post
But it does make sense from a storyline perspective. DR is indeed ment to represent creatures that cant be(either easily, or at all) harmed by average people and normal attacks. Dragons, Fiends Celestials, Golems etc. And to a lesser extent now especialy to represent creatures with a resistance to certain types of physical attack(such as Skeletons). And now IMO its going to better represent the creatures of myth and literature that can only be harmed by a certain substance or thing. The above examples of the myth of Balder, and the Elric stories, and yes Angel, are excellent examples.
drnuncheon
Explorer
Grog said:
Oh, woe! No longer will 8000 gp buy you a weapon that slices through demonhide and dragonscale with impunity! The mighty orcs, with their fearsome DR 0/-, will no doubt scoff at your +5 vorpal keen deathblade! There is no hope for the poor fighter, none!
J
Read the text he you quoted.
He did not claim that dr had anything to do with "balancing" against weaker threats. Matter of fact, his exact words were that they would "pose no threat."
He is simply pointing out that Dr may not be designed as a serious balance issue against even CR battles against heroes at all. DR sets the beastie apart from those things "normal folk" might be able to handle and moves them squarely into the realm of "we need some mythic hero guy NOW!"
Think of it this was... in practically every werewolf legend known, he is beaten by someone finding a silver weapon. Does the new designer-dr where apparently silver weapons will be more rare than magic weapons and the most likely way to beat the werewolf is with magic missile while the tanks keep it at bay make that legend SPRING TO LIFE IN YOUR GAMES?
He did not claim that dr had anything to do with "balancing" against weaker threats. Matter of fact, his exact words were that they would "pose no threat."
He is simply pointing out that Dr may not be designed as a serious balance issue against even CR battles against heroes at all. DR sets the beastie apart from those things "normal folk" might be able to handle and moves them squarely into the realm of "we need some mythic hero guy NOW!"
Think of it this was... in practically every werewolf legend known, he is beaten by someone finding a silver weapon. Does the new designer-dr where apparently silver weapons will be more rare than magic weapons and the most likely way to beat the werewolf is with magic missile while the tanks keep it at bay make that legend SPRING TO LIFE IN YOUR GAMES?
ruleslawyer said:
Dragon 306 page 74 in its reference to the non-bypassable dr "just do a lot of damage or use spells"
I doubt the recent angel episode would have had the same dramatic sense if after seeing angel bash the creature ineffectually Wesly pulled out a wand and dropped it with magic missiles and dropped it.
If baldur was invulnerable to everything but misletoe AND magic missiles and rays of frost... would that be a good dramatic integration of that legend?
"Man, tomorrow we go head to head with achilles. He is invulnerable to any weapons? "
"So, whats the problem? You guys just form the skirmish line, maybe even grapple his bad self, while I hit him with magic missiles until he drops."
Something tells me that even with the wondrous new designer-dr and the new material combo of the week, we still wont be anywhere near to bringing these legends into our game anymore than they are now.
After all, the designers say "just do a lot of damage or use spells" when you cannot bypass the dr.
I doubt the recent angel episode would have had the same dramatic sense if after seeing angel bash the creature ineffectually Wesly pulled out a wand and dropped it with magic missiles and dropped it.
If baldur was invulnerable to everything but misletoe AND magic missiles and rays of frost... would that be a good dramatic integration of that legend?
"Man, tomorrow we go head to head with achilles. He is invulnerable to any weapons? "
"So, whats the problem? You guys just form the skirmish line, maybe even grapple his bad self, while I hit him with magic missiles until he drops."
Something tells me that even with the wondrous new designer-dr and the new material combo of the week, we still wont be anywhere near to bringing these legends into our game anymore than they are now.
After all, the designers say "just do a lot of damage or use spells" when you cannot bypass the dr.
Merlion said:
Brown Jenkin
First Post
Lets compare the Werewolf before and after.
Now the werewolf has DR 15/Silver This means that a 1st level warrior with a greatsword 2d6 and 16 strength +4 two handed has a negligible chance of damaging the creature without a critical or a silver weapon (expensive at 1st level).
Revised werewolf option 1: DR 10/Silver a mid level, higher than it propbably will be with the revised rules but certainly not 15. Now that 1st level warrior with a greatsword 2d6 and 16 strength +4 two handed has a 50/50 chance of damaging the creature with each hit with a standard weapon.
Revised werewolf option 2: DR 5/Silver the lowest level, more likely for a low level CR. Now that 1st level warrior with a greatsword 2d6 and 16 strength +4 two handed is guarunteed to damage the werewolf with each hit of a standard weapon.
I believe the current system better reflects the myth of the werewolf needing silver to kill it. Without silver the average person or town guard is unable to take on this beast without the help of a hero. Yes our higher level heros are able to kill it easily since they have the proper weapons, but then they are the heros. Is there a minor lack of flavor because the heros use a +1 weapon instead, yes, but not when compared to what average folk need.
In the new system give a regular two handed weapon to the 1st level town guard and he can kill the werewolf himself or with a friend. No silver needed at all. This once feared creature is now able to be handled by the town guard without regard to the flavor of silver at all. Additionally our heros are now out of a job as well since the 1st level town guard can deal with the problem themselves. With the new system we have now lost the flavor of silver need to solve the problem and reason for our heros to be involved at all.
Now the werewolf has DR 15/Silver This means that a 1st level warrior with a greatsword 2d6 and 16 strength +4 two handed has a negligible chance of damaging the creature without a critical or a silver weapon (expensive at 1st level).
Revised werewolf option 1: DR 10/Silver a mid level, higher than it propbably will be with the revised rules but certainly not 15. Now that 1st level warrior with a greatsword 2d6 and 16 strength +4 two handed has a 50/50 chance of damaging the creature with each hit with a standard weapon.
Revised werewolf option 2: DR 5/Silver the lowest level, more likely for a low level CR. Now that 1st level warrior with a greatsword 2d6 and 16 strength +4 two handed is guarunteed to damage the werewolf with each hit of a standard weapon.
I believe the current system better reflects the myth of the werewolf needing silver to kill it. Without silver the average person or town guard is unable to take on this beast without the help of a hero. Yes our higher level heros are able to kill it easily since they have the proper weapons, but then they are the heros. Is there a minor lack of flavor because the heros use a +1 weapon instead, yes, but not when compared to what average folk need.
In the new system give a regular two handed weapon to the 1st level town guard and he can kill the werewolf himself or with a friend. No silver needed at all. This once feared creature is now able to be handled by the town guard without regard to the flavor of silver at all. Additionally our heros are now out of a job as well since the 1st level town guard can deal with the problem themselves. With the new system we have now lost the flavor of silver need to solve the problem and reason for our heros to be involved at all.
(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
There was no magic missile in the times of Achilles.
I think the new DR works except for lycanthropes, although there were no magic missiles in the old werewolf stories, either. I give 'em regeneration from all but silver (as I've mentioned before).
I think the new DR works except for lycanthropes, although there were no magic missiles in the old werewolf stories, either. I give 'em regeneration from all but silver (as I've mentioned before).
The whole material argument is academic anyways. There will be a plethora of Transmutation spells in upcoming suplements that will allow casters to change the material of items easily. I wouldn't be surprised if there was something included in 3.5e when it is released. A 1st level Transmute Metal spell to change from steel to iron, silver, cold iron, etc.
I'll stick with the old DR system. Less headaches I think.
I'll stick with the old DR system. Less headaches I think.
Merlion
First Post
Petrosian said:
That is almost entrily a matter of taste and opnion. In fact as I said before, at this point so essentialy is this whole thing. Neither system is perfect. Some people like one and some the other. And they cant make everyone happy. just dont try and accuse the desginers of bad design or people who favor the new system for one reason or another of bad reasoning.
RigaMortus
Explorer
Brown Jenkin said:
You forgot one thing:
As the guards apparently slay the beast and turn their backs to it to go get help lugging it to the morgue, the creature regenerates it's wounds, stands up and rips their throats at.
Regen (or is it Fast Healing) is a wonderful thing. Of course, this could be considered speculation just as your post could be. The point is moot until we see the final product.
