Ahh the 10th level examples; sorry I missed them the first time around:
Ravellion said:
Perhaps some 10th level examples will demonstrate it better for you. We will use the following wizard:
Wizard Level 10, 20 INT (2 stat Increases and a +2 headband), 3e SF and GSF: DC highest level spell: 24.
Ranger, 14 WIS, Cloak of resistance +2. Reasonable right? Will Save +7. Chances: 15%
+2 resistance is pretty low for a 10th level character. I'd expect at least +3 (my Living Greyhawk character had a +3 resistance item at 10th level and LG is a very item poor campaign (he has slightly more than 1/2 the gold recommended for a character of his level)), quite possibly +4 (going by DMG standard treasures).
That would give the 10th level ranger a will save of +8 or +9. 20% or 25% chance of success on a weak save against a greater spell focussed wizard isn't bad. Against a wizard without any 3e spell focusses, that amounts to a 45-50% success chance for a weak save. Again, that's well above the Dragon standards.
Fighter, 12 WIS, Cloak +2, Iron Will +2. Reasonable right? Will Save +8. Chances: 20%
Again, +3 or +4 cloak. Make that +9 or +10. 25-30% chance of succeeding on the weak save against a character with greater spell focus. 35-40% with only 3e spell focus (or 3.5e GSF). And 45-50% against a character without either feat. This is still within the Dragon magazine expectations.
Rogue, 10 WIS, Cloak +2. Reasonable right? Will Save +4. Chances: 5% (20 only)
Assuming no slippery mind, halfling bonus or anything similar. Still, the character is likely to have a +3 or +4 cloak which will result in a 10-15% chance of success. Rogues tend to be weak against save or consequences spells. That's why they have slippery mind as a possible class feature. Of course, they're pretty much immune to save or damage area effects. . . .
For a 35% chance on a weak save we would need to have for instance:
10th level Paladin: Cha 16, Wis 14, Cloak of Charisma +2 (+1 to save), Iron Will: Save total +11: Chances 35%. But this a freaking saving throw monster with very impressive stats (if he has strength as well, that is)!
My impression of a typical 10th level 28 point buy/4d6 paladin:
Str 14, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 14
Increases either strength or charisma at level 4 and 8
+3 vest of resistance, +4 cloak of charisma, +2 sword, +2 shield, +2 fullplate, +2 periapt of wisdom, 5k in backup weapons and consumables. (He relies upon Bull's strength for his strength; alternately, he could have increased strength at levels 4 & 8 for the low end of the saves listed.
Human: feats: Power attack, cleave, divine might, weapon focus, improved critical
Saves: Fort +14/15, Ref +11/12, Will +12/13
Chances of saving a will save: 45-50% against 3e GSF, 55-60% against 3e Spell Focus/3.5e GSG, 65-70% against nonfocussed spells. (Plus various immunities (fear) and resistances (charm, dominate--there's a whole lot that's against any Lawful Good character's nature and most anything a villain would want them to do is against a paladin's nature)).
OK, I'll admit that I'm using a builder book item for the paladin but if GSF is in play (3e) we're using builder book material already and both GSF and vests of resistance come from the same place (Tome and Blood).
I'm sorry, but to me, everyone who says that Wizards are too weak just have problems with their DMs: They like using devils and golems against you. Most creatures do not have SR, and if they do, that is a big sign saying: This creature is resistant to spells! Work around it! Feel challenged! It is like people expecting to use Piercing weapons against skeletons and be 100% effective: it is just silly!
In any event, the above comparison is really between an average-stat optimized wizard and an average-stat save-optimized character. The normal Dragon magazine figures, IMO, should be for wizards without SF or GSF against slightly less save optimized characters. SF and GSF should improve the wizard's chances just as Iron Will, and the various strategies employed by the characters above improve theirs. Tooled up 20 starting int spellcasting prodigy sun elf FRCS archmage characters blow the lid off of this but they're supposed to be dramatically more powerful than the system assumes characters to be. (They're the kind of characters that DMs break out max HD advanced half-fiend athachs or Girallons with above average stats and monk levels to deal with).
IME, the current effectiveness of an offensively focussed wizard against a no SR, poor saves creature is nowhere near the effectiveness of a high level fighter against a sub AC 20 creature. And this is especially true when dealing with the damage spells that seem to be unmolested in the 3.5e revision. (Since the other spells are being toned down/nerfed, reducing the effectiveness of SF and GSF (by requiring two 3.5e feats for the benefit of one 3e feat) is gilding the lily).