D&D (2024) 2024 Astral Plane

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

So then 4e had nothing new and there's even less to connect the World Axis to the default Great Wheel of 5e.

That is an unnecessarily dismissive attitude and not factual. I think you’re better than that Max

To be clear though, I don’t think adopting ideas from the 4e world axis means other parts of it are default 5e. But to suggest 4e didn’t have an influence on the 5e version of the great wheel is just silly or ignorant IMO

The 5e great wheel =/= the great wheel of old

 

[Maxperson]

That is an unnecessarily dismissive attitude and not factual. I think you’re better than that Max

To be clear though, I don’t think adopting ideas from the 4e world axis means other parts of it are default 5e. But to suggest 4e didn’t have an influence on the 5e version of the great wheel is just silly or ignorant IMO

The 5e great wheel =/= the great wheel of old

But it basically is the Great Wheel of old. They've taken the para and quasi elemental planes of old and turned them into elemental chaos. They've taken a smaller feywild plane and made it bigger and more important. They have renamed the plane of shadow into shadowfell. And the astral sea is the astral plane. I'm not seeing anything in the 5e Great Wheel that couldn't be there if 4e had never existed.

Am I missing a plane that is in the 4e cosmology that is unique to 4e and is also present in the 5e Great Wheel?

 

[Maxperson]

Except the 5e wheel adopted the shadowfell*, Fey wild, and the elemental chaos from 4e. A from spelljammer the idea of astral dominions is a 4e thing. So it seems they are blurring the lines even more between the old great wheel, world axis, and the new great wheel

*the shadowfell predates 4e IIRC, however, how it is constructed in 5e is from 4e

The astral dominions are not a 4e thing. The 5e spelljammer astral dominions are godly realms, which started in 1e and the dead gods started in 2e. Perhaps 4e had astral dominions that were something else, but those are not in the 5e version. If so, then having the same name for 5e doesn't make it the same as 4e. Renaming the plane of shadow into shadowfell isn't really a change that warrants being granted 4e uniqueness. Just like when 3e renamed some of the outer planes, those didn't become unique to 3e. The feywild was apparently present prior to 4e. Increasing its prominence doesn't make it unique to 4e.

The closest anything in 4e has to unique is the elemental chaos which is a reimagining of all the mixes of elemental planes combined into one, rather than setting them as quasi and semi elemental planes around the inner wheel.

 

[Yaarel]

That is a fine idea, but I agree with @Maxperson, that is not what the actual text of 5e says. The spelljammer text does not say the outer planes are dominions, you are making that assumption. You are interpreting it to fit your model. That is fine and good. I actually think that is what D&D is all about, but it is not a literal reading of the available text. But maybe that will change when planescape comes out.

I agree with the ambiguity. But the assumption goes both ways.

DMs Guide mentions Outer Planes and pools, but doesnt mention dominions.

Spelljammer mentions dominions and islands, but doesnt mention Outer Planes and pools.

One would expect pools in Spelljammer. It is a reasonable inference that the introduction of 4e Astral Sea dominions is an updated terminology to refer to Astral Planes.

Also, the DMs Guide does mention the term dominion in passing. Such as (46), "The gate spell is powerful, but not infallible. A deity,
demon lord, or other powerful entity can prevent such a portal from opening within its dominion." At least in these contexts, the term "dominion" refers to locales in an Upper Plane.

The term dominion does mean part or all of an Upper Plane. It is reasonable to apply the Spelljammer update to Upper Planes.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

But it basically is the Great Wheel of old. They've taken the para and quasi elemental planes of old and turned them into elemental chaos.

Your ignorance is showing. That is not an accurate understanding of the 4e elemental chaos

They've taken a smaller feywild plane and made it bigger and more important.

That is an over simplification, however how they changes is both important and still an actual change. No sure why you feel the need to dismiss that.

They have renamed the plane of shadow into shadowfell.

See above.

And the astral sea is the astral plane.

I agree

I'm not seeing anything in the 5e Great Wheel that couldn't be there if 4e had never existed.

Sure, but it wasn’t there - and that is important.

Am I missing a plane that is in the 4e cosmology that is unique to 4e and is also present in the 5e Great Wheel?

IDK, not my expertise, I would have to ask my DM. However, I don’t see how that is relevant. We are talking about similarities, not difference aren’t we?

 

[Yaarel]

Am I missing a plane that is in the 4e cosmology that is unique to 4e and is also present in the 5e Great Wheel?

In its day, 4e cosmology was controversial, but it made sound design decisions for the longterm sake of the game.

It amazes me, that today because of 5e, even grognards take these 4e innovations for granted, as if it was always that way.

Anyway, these were good decisions, and I am glad they withstand the test of time.


The connection between 1e Shadow and 4e Shadowfell is name only. Essentially, 4e took both Shadow and Ethereal and remixed them to form Shadowfell and Feywild. 1e Shadow was a blank space relating to illusion and sometimes travel. The illusion aspect remixes as Shadowfell ghostly apparitions and Feywild Illusion magic. Meanwhile the Shadowfell functioned as a kind "Border Shadowfell" that overlapped the Material similar to how the Border Ethereal does. Feywild became realm of teleportation travel.

But perhaps the most significant innovation is how the Shadowfell and Feywild alter the Great Wheel. Unlike the 1e Shadow, the 4e Shadowfell becomes a destination of souls in the afterlife, in some ways replacing the Wheel as the destination of souls. The Eladrin of the Wheel who were the exemplar inhabitants personifying the Chaotic Good alignment, are now Any alignment inhabitants of the Feywild. Even into almost ten years of 5e, it is largely unclear what is going on in the Upper Planes and how the Wheel relates to the rest of the 5e cosmology.


4e lacked an Ethereal Plane except in the sense of Shadowfell bordering the Material Plane. 5e returns the Ethereal Plane to the cosmology while keeping Shadowfell and Feywild, also a solid design decision.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

I agree with the ambiguity. But the assumption goes both ways.

DMs Guide mentions Outer Planes and pools, but doesnt mention dominions.

Spelljammer mentions dominions and islands, but doesnt mention Outer Planes and pools.

One would expect pools in Spelljammer. It is a reasonable inference that the introduction of 4e Astral Sea dominions is an updated terminology to refer to Astral Planes.

Also, the DMs Guide does mention the term dominion in passing. Such as (46), "The gate spell is powerful, but not infallible. A deity,
demon lord, or other powerful entity can prevent such a portal from opening within its dominion." At least in these contexts, the term "dominion" refers to locales in an Upper Plane.

The term dominion does mean part or all of an Upper Plane. It is reasonable to apply the Spelljammer update to Upper Planes.

Except a dominion is specifically a part of plane and not the whole plane.

 

[Yaarel]

Except a dominion is specifically a part of plane and not the whole plane.

I read its meaning as, a "dominion" is the realm of a Divine power, referring to Divine magic.

It can be, the entire Outer Plane is the dominion, such as the Nine Hells subject to Asmodeus.

It might be more useful to understand a 5e "Outer Plane" as a network of separate dominions, each manifesting aspects of a shared concept of an "alignment".

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

I read its meaning as, a "dominion" is the realm of a Divine power, referring to Divine magic.

It can be, the entire Outer Plane is the dominion, such as the Nine Hells subject to Asmodeus.

It might be more useful to understand a 5e "Outer Plane" as a network of separate dominions, each manifesting aspects of a shared alignment concept.

I would have to look by I feel like demon lords have dominions in the abyss and in some cases there are two in one plane (J & Z)

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

The astral dominions are not a 4e thing. The 5e spelljammer astral dominions are godly realms, which started in 1e and the dead gods started in 2e.

I don’t know enough about the pre 4e and 5e use of dominions to discuss this.

Renaming the plane of shadow into shadowfell isn't really a change that warrants being granted 4e uniqueness.

Except is wasn’t simply renaming. If your are ignorant of that fact it explains a lot.

The feywild was apparently present prior to 4e. Increasing its prominence doesn't make it unique to 4e.

There as a precious plane of faerie, but it was not the Feywild. I am cursing why you keep discussing things your are ignorant of? If you are looking for an education on the subject I suggest picking up the relevant sources.

The closest anything in 4e has to unique is the elemental chaos which is a reimagining of all the mixes of elemental planes combined into one, rather than setting them as quasi and semi elemental planes around the inner wheel.

Agai, as previously pointed out, lots wrong here. However, I don’t really care that your are ignorant of the differences. I am more curious why you are arguing? What is the point?