D&D 5E No One Plays High Level?

[EzekielRaiden]

No... we never restricted this to 'only strict class abilities count'. We definitely need to include magic item powers and all that, because in 4e (well, DnD) the assumption is that you get all that stuff as you level up.

If it'd be a separate power card in front of you, it counts. If you need to track tons of things doing different things, that's tracking tons of things, it doesn't matter where they came from.

Then the "no more than 10" standard is impossible.

 

[MGibster]

I still like the domain game, politics, and mass combat.

Skirmish level combat takes long enough in D&D. I can't imagine trying to introduce mass combat in a way that didn't take too long and didn't leave some of the players bored out of their minds. I'd rather play Cyberpunk 2020 and allow someone to play a Netrunner.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Skirmish level combat takes long enough in D&D. I can't imagine trying to introduce mass combat in a way that didn't take too long and didn't leave some of the players bored out of their minds. I'd rather play Cyberpunk 2020 and allow someone to play a Netrunner.

Its not an easy design challenge, and I don't know if it can be done in the context of modern D&D, but I've seen a couple OSR versions that seem to work.

 

[Oligopsony]

Yeah, for mass combat I’d go with Dragon Rampant or By This Poleaxe or maybe just some random tables rather than an expansion of existing rules.

(It’s weird that people say “D&D started out as a wargame” as an explanation for why it has such bloated combat rules when most wargames, including Chainmail, have much simpler combat than modern D&D!)

 

[Minigiant]

Then the "no more than 10" standard is impossible.

That's the problem. Most people want to have more than 10 things. However almost everybody have more than 10 level appropriate things causes high levels to be a issue when you get there

 

[Reynard]

If you are talking about actual war, use War Machine from the Companion set. Nice and abstract but with strategic choices, usable with any edition, and gives you an outcome in a short period of time.

 

[Minigiant]

(It’s weird that people say “D&D started out as a wargame” as an explanation for why it has such bloated combat rules when most wargames, including Chainmail, have much simpler combat than modern D&D!)

War Games are allowed to have simpler combat because war games are willing to limit spellcasters on bredth and power and non-supernatural stuff doesn't need to be made more complex to stay relevant.

Robe guy casts one of his 4 spells.
Knight guy gets within inch of Robes guy. Roll dice. If Robes guy a Named hero? No. Robes guy be dead.

 

[Micah Sweet]

War Games are allowed to have simpler combat because war games are willing to limit spellcasters on bredth and power and non-supernatural stuff doesn't need to be made more complex to stay relevant.

Robe guy casts one of his 4 spells.
Knight guy gets within inch of Robes guy. Roll dice. If Robes guy a Named hero? No. Robes guy be dead.

One of the ideas I like is simply limiting the scope of combat magic to what would be equivalent to cannons from the Napoleonic or Revolutionary War eras of warfare. Powerful enough to be effective, limited enough to not force some version of modern warfare.

 

[Minigiant]

One of the ideas I like is simply limiting the scope of combat magic to what would be equivalent to cannons from the Napoleonic or Revolutionary War eras of warfare. Powerful enough to be effective, limited enough to not force some version of modern warfare.

To me, Combat spells themselves isn't a problem. The issue is the number of spells and number of slots.

Like I said before, limiting characters down to 10 slots of power to remember and power their abilities would be best. Like high level caster could look like

1. Cantrip
2. Cantrip
3. Spell
4. Spell
5. Spell
6. Spell
7. Spell
8. Spell Recovery
9. Sublcass feature
10. Feat for Metamagic and 2 Sorcery points.
    1. Xing Spell
    2. Ying Spell

or

1. Cantrip
2. Cantrip
3. Spell
4. Spell
5. Spell
6. Sorcery: 2 Metamagic and X Sorcery points.
   1. Xing Spell
   2. Ying Spell
7. Sublcass feature
8. Feat for 2 Metamagic and 2 Sorcery points.
   1. Aing Spell
   2. Bing Spell
9. Feat for Runes
   1. X Rune
   2. Y Rune

 

[EzekielRaiden]

That's the problem. Most people want to have more than 10 things. However almost everybody have more than 10 level appropriate things causes high levels to be a issue when you get there

Given the proliferation of abilities, not just for casters but for non-casters as well (as you note, maneuvers and active feats and other things), I would argue 4e got the closest to that standard. And, not so coincidentally, it's also the one that doesn't have terrible balance issues at high level.