D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Gammadoodler]

Yes. It absolutely warped the reality of the world and geo-politics, reshaping what WAR meant for the next fifty years. To the point we refer to those bombings as the start of the nuclear age, and their impacts have reshaped our world.

Hell.. even looking at the underlying physics, they were bombs which used as their mechanism, the splitting of the basic particles that make up our existence.

 

[Minigiant]

Why?

This is kind of the whole thing I was griping about earlier.

What core operating mechanism of every fantasy setting D&D could emulate necessitates this?

Is there divine writ? An occult tome of otherwise ineffable setting assumptions that is only internally consistent in this one respect?

Or is it something you kinda think makes sense but isn't really supported by anything?

Or is it just a game design choice that game designers have made in the past that they could make again or not make in the future?

You are missing the limitation of the item.

The fighter is badass.
The weapon, if not masterwork or magical, is not badass.

A warrior, no matter how strong, cannot pick up a twig off the ground and knock down a stone castle in one blow. The twig will break.
The same warrior could punch the castle with their fists and topple it in many settings.

In most fantasy settings, a twig is not strong enough to withstand the pressure needed to crush stone.

Same with a common sword made by Joe the Smith blocking a Meteor Swarm. The sword's gonna break. That doesn't mean the fighter is less powerful. The weak link is the sword.

Having a magical sword removes that weak link.

2014 assumes your fighter has access to magic or masterwork weapons.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

So the DMG needs a chapter on judging improvised Fighter actions?

Maybe in the PHB. It's still bad design to have 1 class so depend on this improv mechanism and others not. But it would be a hell of a lot better.

The Fighter gets the following class ability at 1st level and you lose it if you multiclass

Do Nice Martial Stuff (1st): Whenever, a Fighter wants to do some cool martial stuff that they should be able to do given their level and the genre, they spend an Action to do so. The cool stuff can break the action economy and involve narrative control if needed. Try not to spam the same cool stuff over and over again, cause that be boring.

For standard D&D settings use the following as guidlines for what is possible with Do Nice Martial Stuff. Other settings may alter these guidlines.

Level 1
...
Level 4
* Using a combination of trickery, taunts, grabs, acrobatics, whatever makes sense, etc. all enemies within 30 feet end up next to you and you can do 1 attack on each enemy.

Level 6
* you can get from point A to point B within 120 feet if at all remotely action hero possible. The DM will contort the narrative to make it possble if neccessary -- e.g., the dragon swooped down at just the right momement for you jump on to its back and it shrugs you off and you jump on the vine and swing over to your destination.

Level 8
...
etc
etc

 

[Minigiant]

Nope. Just a sword and a badass.

It's badass. The don't have to explain it.

The warrior is a badass.
The sword is common and can break
The badass should punch the magic over using cheap weapons.

 

[Gammadoodler]

You are missing the limitation of the item.

The fighter is badass.
The weapon, if not masterwork or magical, is not badass.

A warrior, no matter how strong, cannot pick up a twig off the ground and knock down a stone castle in one blow. The twig will break.
The same warrior could punch the castle with their fists and topple it in many settings.

In most fantasy settings, a twig is not strong enough to withstand the pressure needed to crush stone.

Same with a common sword made by Joe the Smith blocking a Meteor Swarm. The sword's gonna break. That doesn't mean the fighter is less powerful. The weak link is the sword.

Having a magical sword removes that weak link.

2014 assumes your fighter has access to magic or masterwork weapons.

No you're missing the point. The fighter is badass full stop.

You're inventing a weak link by saying "surely the sword must break"

I don't know why.

 

[Chaosmancer]

It isn't the games fault if you're not meshing well with your playgroup

Thats really an issue where one should be considering either shifting groups or finding a different game to play together.

If the group is wanting to play Battlefield it isn't Battlefields fault its not Fortnite.

So you'd say that it is a group problem if I get told "no you can't use your three attacks, deal full damage, knock one person prone, one back 20 ft, and the third disarmed"? That the playgroup is the problem, not the rules. But one of your solutions is... finding a different game? If it is only a group problem, how would playing a different game help?

Maybe by... having explicit rules... to allow things that currently aren't allowed? Like... if you changed the rules of the game, instead of just saying "but you can improvise anything, if your DM approves and your DM should allows approve 100% of the time!"

Because you pay attention to what everyone else is playing and, being a good team member, think of ways to help them out?

I can only go off of the examples you've given me here. You could absolutely be doing more if this how your experience is going, whether you're playing a martial or not.

Scribe Wizard, Divine Sorcerer, Gloomstalker Ranger. Those are my teammates. Only one of us has any ability to utilize light. That's the ranger. And they only just got that ability. But sure, maybe I could be a better team player and go turning off the lights so the magical ranger can turn invisible.

But also... as the only melee and only tough character... my character really only has one position on the battlefield. To the point where the DM has given us a temporary DMPC fighter, because without them I'd be dead in this fight already. The Divine Soul is keeping me alive turn by turn, but I can't take two strikes from the enemy in a row without dropping to zero hp.

And, it isn't like I haven't considered other things. But what's the big suggestions you are about to give? Prone? That's terrible, it will ruin everything for my allies because they all use ranged attacks. Prone is a terrible decision. Grapple? Why waste an attack on grappling (if I wasn't normally using a shield and weapon so I don't have a free hand anyways)? Grapple prevents the enemy from moving, but the DM doesn't have the enemy run past me usually. And other than that, grapple doesn't do anything. I'd be giving up damage for no purpose. Shove? Again, I'd be giving up damage for nothing. Shoving doesn't do anything unless you have a reason to use it.

And that's it. Those are the three things you might have been about to suggest. You can't do blinded, that's a spell. Charmed? Can't do that in combat. Intimidation? That's the fear spell, can't do that. Invisible? Magic. Paralyzed? Magic. Petrified? Poisoned? Stunned? Incapcitated? These are all special conditions that you can't just "inflict" with normal attacks. Well, maybe you would allow it to happen, but no other DM I've ever had would. I don't usually allow it, because I get caught up in thinking about the balance.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Precisely, which is why I brought up this point in the first place, to show that the idea that just because casters can do something doesn't mean the martial can't make use of it to great effect or that it "doesn't count" as something they can do in the game.

Sure, just because casters have superior options at nearly every turn, to the point that using abilities that are considered special and unique for martials is a waste of their time, doesn't mean martials don't have options.

It does really put their options in perspective thought, when you realize that spellcasters won't even waste their time to attempt them, even though they could

 

[Chaosmancer]

You are missing the limitation of the item.

The fighter is badass.
The weapon, if not masterwork or magical, is not badass.

A warrior, no matter how strong, cannot pick up a twig off the ground and knock down a stone castle in one blow. The twig will break.
The same warrior could punch the castle with their fists and topple it in many settings.

In most fantasy settings, a twig is not strong enough to withstand the pressure needed to crush stone.

Same with a common sword made by Joe the Smith blocking a Meteor Swarm. The sword's gonna break. That doesn't mean the fighter is less powerful. The weak link is the sword.

Then the Grandmaster of the Sword doesn't use a weak sword to block, but to direct the momentum of the meteors back up into the air where they explode without hurting anyone, and without damaging his sword. They don't just jam a twig into stone like a small child playing around, but they find the correct harmonic resonance and tap the precise locations needed to shatter the stone with the forces the twig can survive outputting.

What you are describing is not SKILL it is POWER. But that isn't what I've been talking about. I've been talking about SKILL

Having a magical sword removes that weak link.

2014 assumes your fighter has access to magic or masterwork weapons.

No it doesn't. Masterwork weapons don't exist in the 2014 books, and magic items are optional per the rules.

 

[Gammadoodler]

You can't do blinded, that's a spell. Charmed? Can't do that in combat. Intimidation? That's the fear spell, can't do that. Invisible? Magic. Paralyzed? Magic. Petrified? Poisoned? Stunned? Incapcitated? These are all special conditions that you can't just "inflict" with normal attacks.

Yeah, this is one of the places where D&D design is especially silly. Blinded, Deafened, Stunned, Paralyzed, and Restrained should be waaaaay more accessible to martials than they are currently, especially at higher levels.

Like these are actual conditions actual warriors in the real world have inflicted on each other since the dawn of combat.

 

[Emberashh]

No it isn't.

Yes it is.

An antimatter rifle is a gun the same way that a nail is a sword. I didn't compare it to Doom's BFG for no reason. We are talking about unleashing pure destructive energy that can likely disintegrate anything it touches. And THAT is only a 1/3 as powerful as the epitome of destructive magic.

What you're touching on is that 5e wasn't consistently designed and that fact is highlighted in optional rule variants the designers admit were never even balanced to begin with.

Yes. It absolutely warped the reality of the world and geo-politics, reshaping what WAR meant for the next fifty years.

You're now talking about something entirely different.

yay, condescension. My favorite. How about you answer the question instead?

That wasn't condescension Im literally saying thats what we ought to be talking about. God forbid I try to be to humorous with a meme this isn't that serious of a conversation.

Additionally, you are arguing that a completely theoritical thing might be possible.

Souls aren't real either. Some consistency would be appreciated.

You are trying to argue that magic isn't warping how the world works, by pointing out how magic warps how the world works

As said, you're starting with the conclusion and working backwards to justify it.

That the playgroup is the problem, not the rules.

You brought these examples up, and its not an either/or. If you can't find a game that satisfies everyone at the table, it isn't any of those game's fault, and it then is on you to seek a playgroup better suited to your preferences if you cannot work out these differences with the one you have.

Like, one of my hard lines is sexual roleplay. The farthest Ill go is jokes and a fade to black if its really wanted. I will not under any circumstance roleplay or even be present for the roleplaying of actual intercourse of any kind.

Not everyone in my group is like that, but we all have a mutual understanding and the three that like doing that run their own sessions when they want to go into it. No harm, no foul, everybody is happy.

If these are real issues you're having, talk to your group and hash it out. It isn't 5e's fault you're having this problem, even if it exacerbates it.

But what's the big suggestions you are about to give?

If the wizard, of all the playstyles, is the one who had the idea to rush in and snuff the lights, then you could have done that too, is my point. You have considerably less to think about, after all. What else you might have done depends on the circumstances, of which you've given no details.

And again, it isn't a competition. You're not lesser because you didn't have the thought to snuff the lights.