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What makes an TTRPG a "Narrative Game" (Apocalypse World Discussion)
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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 9323568" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>Well, not meaning this as 'fighting words', but I don't have any particular regard for your analysis of DW/PbtA, it is just off-base. It certainly doesn't correspond to any PbtA play (using several rule sets) that I've engaged in. </p><p></p><p>As for alignment, it is a complete s**t show. I mean, you've been posting here for TWENTY YEARS, you cannot possibly with a straight face believe that alignment means diddly squat. Sure, some statements about what would constitute, say, Lawful Good behavior are likely to elicit a degree of consensus, but not a lot. At best they will be extreme examples. Alignment tends to lead to nothing but very stereotyped kinds of shallow moral questioning. I mean, just read post #63, [USER=42582]@pemerton[/USER] hits the nail right on the head!</p><p></p><p>I'm not sure what your example is saying about the nature of RP in, lets pick Apocalypse World since it has the most extreme focus on relationships. In AW the world is crumbling, scarcity is growing. The PCs generally fall into a category of people that are either upholding some level of social cohesion, or are maybe attempting to force themselves into positions within whatever is left of society. This produces the 'pressure cooker' kinds of scenarios where people's values and relationships will come into conflict, either with those of others, or with practical necessity. Whether or not people can be 'made to do things' or not may be important, but the question isn't the fairly unrealistic ideal of whether free will exists at some absolute limit, but more about what are you going to do in order to make people do/want to do whatever gets you what you want/need. At what point will you resist being manipulated? At what cost? What if you just go along? All sorts of questions can be asked in play. I won't pretend to be able to say how much that reflects how people actually work in real life, RP is inevitably a bit different from the real world. Still, at least within the context of the milieu AW can ask, and answer, real questions, and the game provides the freedom to portray that and the consequences/aftermath. </p><p></p><p>OTOH what really does alignment do? It simply posits some very narrow definitions of moral theories that barely even correspond with the sorts of actual real-world things we face as moral agents. Again I direct you to [USER=42582]@pemerton[/USER]'s post #63. What does D&D alignment have to say about a question like "Is it morally acceptable to kill certain people, regardless of concepts of law or justice, in order to promote the good of the whole community?" D&D can say NOTHING on this subject, and where any given GM would come down on a particular instantiation of this question in play is completely arbitrary. Alignment labels will not help you even a tiny bit here. Yet THESE are the sorts of questions that actually face people, especially if they're acting in significant social roles, like as heroes or something like that. This means that alignment is also pretty much toothless in signaling what we want to engage with on this front. It's fine in terms of adding color to your game, the LG party wants the trappings of being 'good guys', the shiny armor, the place in the Sun, etc. Otherwise it's worthless.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 9323568, member: 82106"] Well, not meaning this as 'fighting words', but I don't have any particular regard for your analysis of DW/PbtA, it is just off-base. It certainly doesn't correspond to any PbtA play (using several rule sets) that I've engaged in. As for alignment, it is a complete s**t show. I mean, you've been posting here for TWENTY YEARS, you cannot possibly with a straight face believe that alignment means diddly squat. Sure, some statements about what would constitute, say, Lawful Good behavior are likely to elicit a degree of consensus, but not a lot. At best they will be extreme examples. Alignment tends to lead to nothing but very stereotyped kinds of shallow moral questioning. I mean, just read post #63, [USER=42582]@pemerton[/USER] hits the nail right on the head! I'm not sure what your example is saying about the nature of RP in, lets pick Apocalypse World since it has the most extreme focus on relationships. In AW the world is crumbling, scarcity is growing. The PCs generally fall into a category of people that are either upholding some level of social cohesion, or are maybe attempting to force themselves into positions within whatever is left of society. This produces the 'pressure cooker' kinds of scenarios where people's values and relationships will come into conflict, either with those of others, or with practical necessity. Whether or not people can be 'made to do things' or not may be important, but the question isn't the fairly unrealistic ideal of whether free will exists at some absolute limit, but more about what are you going to do in order to make people do/want to do whatever gets you what you want/need. At what point will you resist being manipulated? At what cost? What if you just go along? All sorts of questions can be asked in play. I won't pretend to be able to say how much that reflects how people actually work in real life, RP is inevitably a bit different from the real world. Still, at least within the context of the milieu AW can ask, and answer, real questions, and the game provides the freedom to portray that and the consequences/aftermath. OTOH what really does alignment do? It simply posits some very narrow definitions of moral theories that barely even correspond with the sorts of actual real-world things we face as moral agents. Again I direct you to [USER=42582]@pemerton[/USER]'s post #63. What does D&D alignment have to say about a question like "Is it morally acceptable to kill certain people, regardless of concepts of law or justice, in order to promote the good of the whole community?" D&D can say NOTHING on this subject, and where any given GM would come down on a particular instantiation of this question in play is completely arbitrary. Alignment labels will not help you even a tiny bit here. Yet THESE are the sorts of questions that actually face people, especially if they're acting in significant social roles, like as heroes or something like that. This means that alignment is also pretty much toothless in signaling what we want to engage with on this front. It's fine in terms of adding color to your game, the LG party wants the trappings of being 'good guys', the shiny armor, the place in the Sun, etc. Otherwise it's worthless. [/QUOTE]
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