D&D 5E "Until the end of your next turn"

[Lizard]

Looking at Cheetah's Rake (Ranger 17), but it's a general question:

If an effect lasts "until the end of your next turn", does that mean the person affected can do nothing about it? i.e, I use CR and knock the ogre prone. The ogre's initiative comes up. As I read it, he *cannot* attempt to stand because my next turn hasn't come yet. Correct?

After my next turn ends, is he automatically no longer prone, or does he need to use an action on his turn to stand?

If I die between when I apply Cheetah's Rake and when the ogre's turn comes up, is the effect ended? Does it end on my death, or on his turn? i.e:

round 1:
Initiative count 20: I use CR on the ogre.
Initiative count 18: I am slain by the ogre's ally! Woe!
Initiative count 15: The ogre's turn. Is he:
a)Automatically no longer prone?
b)Prone, but can stand normally?
c)Prone, and cannot stand until Initiative 20 of Round 2, when my "next turn" would have ended?

(Also, can I choose to delay my action in round 2 to, say, initiative count 1, so as to drag out how long the ogre is prone and give everyone a chance to wail on his sorry ass?)

Is there a general rule for ongoing effects which are not (save ends) WRT when the source of the effect dies? Does it matter if the effect is arcane, divine, or martial?

 

[Syrsuro]

IMHO, the key is that the target is immobilized and knocked prone until your next turn (you didn't mention the immobilization effect). Without the immobilization effect, I thought it odd that the target couldn't just get up.

If it mattered, I would probably rule that the target is immobilized until the end of your next turn, and secondarily knocked prone. That is to say:

Until the end of your next turn, the target is immobilized and prone.
After the end of your next turn, the target is no longer immobilized but is still prone. He can then take a move action to stand up. Likewise, if something were able to negate the immobilization I would allow opponent to stand on their initiative. But not as long as they were immobile.


If you are dropped to negative hit points, the end of your next turn still occurs at its scheduled time. You, in fact, get to make a death saving throw on your next turn. Your being downed does not negate the effect of your power on the target.

That said - I can certainly see a strict interpretation of the rules allowing the opponent to automatically stand (immediate reaction?) upon the end of your next turn. I just prefer that they spend an action to do so. (I would also allow them to choose to delay their entire turn until after the effect ended).

(Also, can I choose to delay my action in round 2 to, say, initiative count 1, so as to drag out how long the ogre is prone and give everyone a chance to wail on his sorry ass?)

Not as stated. See page 288 of the PHB under Delay/End of your turn.

Is there a general rule for ongoing effects which are not (save ends) WRT when the source of the effect dies? Does it matter if the effect is arcane, divine, or martial?

Not that I am aware of. My feeling is that conditions on the target do not terminate simply because the source died/fell unconscious, with the exception of marks which do terminate.

Although one could argue that marks should also continue until the end of the downed character's next turn I don't like that (and would house rule appropriately) because it encourages attacks on downed characters which is bad because a) it makes PC death even more likely as they are driven further negative and b) it requries creatures/PCs to waste attacks attacking already defeated opponents. If you are down, the marks expire and creatures are free to choose new targets.

Carl

 

[Lizard]

If you are dropped to negative hit points, the end of your next turn still occurs at its scheduled time. You, in fact, get to make a death saving throw on your next turn. Your being downed does not negate the effect of your power on the target.

Downed, sure, but it's possible -- albeit unlikely -- to actually be killed in one shot. If I am at 1 hit point and am hit with enough damage to drop me to -1/2 my hit points, I am deceased, not downed. (It's more likely if you consider I might be hit by multiple effects between my action and my next turn -- area spells, ongoing damage, and so on might well kill me by sheer hit point loss before I get a chance to make a death save.)

That said - I can certainly see a strict interpretation of the rules allowing the opponent to automatically stand (immediate reaction?) upon the end of your next turn. I just prefer that they spend an action to do so. (I would also allow them to choose to delay their entire turn until after the effect ended).

Carl

I would have written it as "The opponent is knocked prone, and immobilized until the end of your next turn". That makes it clear that being knocked prone isn't the "lasting" effect, but the immobilization is, and THAT'S what keeps them from standing. (OTOH, immobilization says "You can't move from your space", not "You can't take move actions". Thus, being immobilized and knocked prone does not mean you can't stand while immobilized. You just can't go anywhere after you do.)

My personal interpretation would be that when the effect ends, you are no longer immobilized and CAN stand if you choose, but you are not automagically righted.

 

[keterys]

Nothing in the statement 'until the end of your next turn' prevents you from fixing a condition. For example, let's say you are immobilized until the end of your next turn and use Instant Escape. Poof, you are no longer immobilized.

Similarly, if you are prone, and stand, poof you are no longer prone.

 

[Lizard]

Nothing in the statement 'until the end of your next turn' prevents you from fixing a condition. For example, let's say you are immobilized until the end of your next turn and use Instant Escape. Poof, you are no longer immobilized.

Similarly, if you are prone, and stand, poof you are no longer prone.

This makes sense, but then, what's the point of "until the end of your next turn"? I can see it for conditions like Immobilized which don't have a generic "end this condition by this action" available to all, but is there a difference between, say:

"Attack +2 vs. Reflex, and target is knocked prone."
and
"Attack +2 vs. Reflex, and target is knocked prone until the end of your next turn."?

Based on what you wrote, there isn't. Granted, I haven't checked to see if there's any powers which work like this, so it might all be moot, but I'm curious as to the exact interpretation of things. OK, I checked the Compendium, and every other power which knocks people prone just says "Target is knocked prone", which tells me the "until the end of your next turn" of CR *only* applies to the immobilization. Got it.

 

[Syrsuro]

I think the RAW are as Keterys describes.

I also think that this is not the RAI. I think that immobilized was intended to also prevent other forms of movement, not just movement from square to square and thus immobilized should prevent rising from prone.

Until either official declaration that you can rise from prone while immobilzed or errata to correct this oversight I will be houseruling that an immobilized creature can attack from prone, but not rise.

So a creature that uses Instant Escape or the like to remove the immobilization could then stand, but otherwise they could not until the end of the players next turn. But that is just my own opinion, not the RAW.

Carl

 

[keterys]

There shouldn't be any instance where 'prone until the end of your next turn' shows up on its own from my own skimming, but I'd be interested if you find otherwise.

The way to do what you want Sysuro is 'knocked prone, and immobilized and unable to stand until the end of your next turn' or add 'unable to stand while immobilized' or some similar variant.

 

[Kordeth]

There shouldn't be any instance where 'prone until the end of your next turn' shows up on its own from my own skimming, but I'd be interested if you find otherwise.

The way to do what you want Sysuro is 'knocked prone, and immobilized and unable to stand until the end of your next turn' or add 'unable to stand while immobilized' or some similar variant.

Actually, I think the way to do what Sysuro wants is to rewrite the Immobilized condition to say "you cannot take any move actions except for powers with the Teleportation keyword. You cannot move from your space, although you can teleport or be moved by a push, pull, or slide."

 

[keterys]

Fair - that would cover all cases though I think it'd be a little weird for certain cases of immobilize, but whatever, close enough.

 

[firesnakearies]

If it mattered, I would probably rule that the target is immobilized until the end of your next turn, and secondarily knocked prone. That is to say:

Until the end of your next turn, the target is immobilized and prone.
After the end of your next turn, the target is no longer immobilized but is still prone. He can then take a move action to stand up. Likewise, if something were able to negate the immobilization I would allow opponent to stand on their initiative. But not as long as they were immobile.

If you are dropped to negative hit points, the end of your next turn still occurs at its scheduled time. You, in fact, get to make a death saving throw on your next turn. Your being downed does not negate the effect of your power on the target.

Not as stated. See page 288 of the PHB under Delay/End of your turn.

Not that I am aware of. My feeling is that conditions on the target do not terminate simply because the source died/fell unconscious, with the exception of marks which do terminate.

Although one could argue that marks should also continue until the end of the downed character's next turn I don't like that (and would house rule appropriately) because it encourages attacks on downed characters which is bad because a) it makes PC death even more likely as they are driven further negative and b) it requries creatures/PCs to waste attacks attacking already defeated opponents. If you are down, the marks expire and creatures are free to choose new targets.

This post perfectly mirrors what my own rulings would be.