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<blockquote data-quote="Sacrosanct" data-source="post: 7796628" data-attributes="member: 15700"><p>I referenced this above, but I want to expand on it so it doesn't get lost to anyone who might miss it.</p><p></p><p>When 1e talks about encounter building, it uses the term "level" for dungeons in the construction sense. Not the party level sense. Dungeon design back then was literally "the first level is full of these monsters, when you go to the second level, these monsters are found, etc." So a level 4 dungeon isn't designed for level 4 characters; it's literally the fourth level down.</p><p></p><p>Old school D&D was not remotely designed for encounter balance. The level of the party didn't matter. The composition or number of the party didn't matter. How many fights per day didn't matter. The only guideline/rule was that monsters got tougher as the dungeon levels got deeper. It was up to the party to "balance" the game by going as far as they were willing to go. There was zero, <em>ZERO </em>expectation that any encounter at any given time would be beatable. Contrast that to WoTC and suddenly that expectation became codified. The encounter guidelines were right there. Doug even said it himself, how 5% were expected to be deadly. I.e., the players expected that at any given time, they were expected to win 95% of all battles even if done on an arena style with not extra pre-planning needed. As Mr. Ward said in his OP, and as I have said, that simply didn't exist in TSR era D&D.</p><p></p><p>They are not the same. The differences are not just "a bit granular". Rules for balancing encounters did not exist back then. The rules cited are for dungeon building, and not for balancing encounters. As I said, it's possible (and likely) that there will be dragons and wererats in the first level of a dungeon. And on the 8th level, you can encounter <em>two </em>red dragons (ancient and old) and other equally tough creatures. That is not balanced against party power (because party power isn't even factored). Those are rules supporting <em>only </em>the idea that monsters get tougher as the dungeon levels progress; there's nothing balanced about that at all in the context of what we think of when we talk about encounter balancing. WoTC takes the opposite approach, where monster danger doesn't matter where they are found, but will always be adjusted to the party power instead. There's no way you can make a reasonable argument that there were encounter balancing rules in AD&D when the guidelines in AD&D didn't factor in the party power at all. How can you have balance if you don't even consider what you're balancing against? The only mention is if the players are having a hard time, then you might want to cut back on the monster toughness. That's hardly a rule. It doesn't say by how much, or define mechanics for that at all.</p><p></p><p>So no, not only are they not similar, they are opposite approaches.</p><p></p><p>*Edit appears [USER=6799753]@lowkey13[/USER] and I were typing basically the same thing at the same time <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Sacrosanct, post: 7796628, member: 15700"] I referenced this above, but I want to expand on it so it doesn't get lost to anyone who might miss it. When 1e talks about encounter building, it uses the term "level" for dungeons in the construction sense. Not the party level sense. Dungeon design back then was literally "the first level is full of these monsters, when you go to the second level, these monsters are found, etc." So a level 4 dungeon isn't designed for level 4 characters; it's literally the fourth level down. Old school D&D was not remotely designed for encounter balance. The level of the party didn't matter. The composition or number of the party didn't matter. How many fights per day didn't matter. The only guideline/rule was that monsters got tougher as the dungeon levels got deeper. It was up to the party to "balance" the game by going as far as they were willing to go. There was zero, [I]ZERO [/I]expectation that any encounter at any given time would be beatable. Contrast that to WoTC and suddenly that expectation became codified. The encounter guidelines were right there. Doug even said it himself, how 5% were expected to be deadly. I.e., the players expected that at any given time, they were expected to win 95% of all battles even if done on an arena style with not extra pre-planning needed. As Mr. Ward said in his OP, and as I have said, that simply didn't exist in TSR era D&D. They are not the same. The differences are not just "a bit granular". Rules for balancing encounters did not exist back then. The rules cited are for dungeon building, and not for balancing encounters. As I said, it's possible (and likely) that there will be dragons and wererats in the first level of a dungeon. And on the 8th level, you can encounter [I]two [/I]red dragons (ancient and old) and other equally tough creatures. That is not balanced against party power (because party power isn't even factored). Those are rules supporting [I]only [/I]the idea that monsters get tougher as the dungeon levels progress; there's nothing balanced about that at all in the context of what we think of when we talk about encounter balancing. WoTC takes the opposite approach, where monster danger doesn't matter where they are found, but will always be adjusted to the party power instead. There's no way you can make a reasonable argument that there were encounter balancing rules in AD&D when the guidelines in AD&D didn't factor in the party power at all. How can you have balance if you don't even consider what you're balancing against? The only mention is if the players are having a hard time, then you might want to cut back on the monster toughness. That's hardly a rule. It doesn't say by how much, or define mechanics for that at all. So no, not only are they not similar, they are opposite approaches. *Edit appears [USER=6799753]@lowkey13[/USER] and I were typing basically the same thing at the same time ;) [/QUOTE]
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