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Revel's End... magi-tech that jumps the shark!
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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 8932574" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>This is entirely something you have made up. In order to be extrajudicial <em>it must fall outside the laws of the place given.</em> If the local laws say that walking-while-elf is deserving of life imprisonment then sentencing an elf to life imprisonment for not hopping is not extrajudicial. It may be unfair and unjust but that is an entirely different question to whether it's extrajudicial.</p><p></p><p>Other than where the module literally says in so many words "<em>To be imprisoned in Revel’s End, one must have committed a serious crime against one or more of the member cities and been sentenced to a lengthy period of incarceration (typically a year or more).</em>" And I quoted this above - but you continue to ignore what was actually written.</p><p></p><p>It is literally made explicit and not in a way that can be accounted for by an unreliable narrator that someone must have not just been committed a crime but been sentenced - in other words the law must have been followed.</p><p></p><p>Whether the imprisonment was just is entirely irrelevant to whether it's extrajudicial.</p><p></p><p>Waterdeep's legal code doesn't have provision for imprisoning people for more than a year - but does for a year. Only the worst according to the legal system go to Revel's End.</p><p></p><p><em>Who is pretending the Waterdeep legal system is fine?</em></p><p></p><p>However just because a legal system is imperfect doesn't mean that it's impossible for a lawful good person to work within it. Doing one of the things a good legal system does (keeping bad people out of trouble), and either making sure that there <em>aren't</em> political prisoners or if there are making sure they get access to the parole board. And, given it's a prison in the middle of nowhere, making sure that a bad person doesn't take it over and turn it into a nightmare.</p><p></p><p>The idea that a lawful good person can't engage with flawed systems and try to keep them on the rails as far as is practically possible is ridiculous.</p><p></p><p>I didn't "address" your criticisms. I pointed out your criticisms are about as relevant as someone purporting to be a Batman fan ranting about how this Tim Drake isn't Robin and Robin must always be Dick Grayson because that's the way it was years ago. (Never mind that the current Robin is Damian Wayne - and Batman has to tell <em>him</em> to lighten up).</p><p></p><p>The simple fact is that it is no longer the 90s - and the Forgotten Realms haven't been what you still like to pretend they are for over 20 years. The Forgotten Realms are the default D&D setting and were in 3.0 and 3.5 (despite some minor nods towards Greyhawk in the PHB and DMG) and are in 5e. The entire cosmology has been reworked repeatedly; in 3rd edition it was the World Tree and in 4e we got the Spellplague. Then the Second Sundering.</p><p></p><p>The Forgotten Realms is the most basic D&D setting and the generic setting. Your claim is basically that the existence of <em>any</em> mage that does practical long lasting philosophical experiments destroys the entire tone of the Realms. That all mages must be cookie cutter and act in lockstep.</p><p></p><p>I understand what tone means. I also understand that you are looking at the tone of a single instrument and saying the entire orchestra must have the same tone. You want to cut the entire brass section out of the orchestra despite most of the music in an eight year period (the entire 3.0/3.5 period) having been dominated by brass players including in the Realms. Yes you're free to <em>prefer</em> the strings - but the brass are still part of the orchestra.</p><p></p><p>Secret Harpers Everywhere? That sounds like a perfect match for the tone of the Realms.</p><p></p><p>I'm just missing one piece of the puzzle - a time machine to reverse the entire last 25 years and bring us back to a time when TSR still existed.</p><p></p><p>And even then the idea that no wizard could have possibly made something like Revel's End (which by the way was made for the upcoming movie before going into Frostmaiden and now here) would have been gatekeeping.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 8932574, member: 87792"] This is entirely something you have made up. In order to be extrajudicial [I]it must fall outside the laws of the place given.[/I] If the local laws say that walking-while-elf is deserving of life imprisonment then sentencing an elf to life imprisonment for not hopping is not extrajudicial. It may be unfair and unjust but that is an entirely different question to whether it's extrajudicial. Other than where the module literally says in so many words "[I]To be imprisoned in Revel’s End, one must have committed a serious crime against one or more of the member cities and been sentenced to a lengthy period of incarceration (typically a year or more).[/I]" And I quoted this above - but you continue to ignore what was actually written. It is literally made explicit and not in a way that can be accounted for by an unreliable narrator that someone must have not just been committed a crime but been sentenced - in other words the law must have been followed. Whether the imprisonment was just is entirely irrelevant to whether it's extrajudicial. Waterdeep's legal code doesn't have provision for imprisoning people for more than a year - but does for a year. Only the worst according to the legal system go to Revel's End. [I]Who is pretending the Waterdeep legal system is fine?[/I] However just because a legal system is imperfect doesn't mean that it's impossible for a lawful good person to work within it. Doing one of the things a good legal system does (keeping bad people out of trouble), and either making sure that there [I]aren't[/I] political prisoners or if there are making sure they get access to the parole board. And, given it's a prison in the middle of nowhere, making sure that a bad person doesn't take it over and turn it into a nightmare. The idea that a lawful good person can't engage with flawed systems and try to keep them on the rails as far as is practically possible is ridiculous. I didn't "address" your criticisms. I pointed out your criticisms are about as relevant as someone purporting to be a Batman fan ranting about how this Tim Drake isn't Robin and Robin must always be Dick Grayson because that's the way it was years ago. (Never mind that the current Robin is Damian Wayne - and Batman has to tell [I]him[/I] to lighten up). The simple fact is that it is no longer the 90s - and the Forgotten Realms haven't been what you still like to pretend they are for over 20 years. The Forgotten Realms are the default D&D setting and were in 3.0 and 3.5 (despite some minor nods towards Greyhawk in the PHB and DMG) and are in 5e. The entire cosmology has been reworked repeatedly; in 3rd edition it was the World Tree and in 4e we got the Spellplague. Then the Second Sundering. The Forgotten Realms is the most basic D&D setting and the generic setting. Your claim is basically that the existence of [I]any[/I] mage that does practical long lasting philosophical experiments destroys the entire tone of the Realms. That all mages must be cookie cutter and act in lockstep. I understand what tone means. I also understand that you are looking at the tone of a single instrument and saying the entire orchestra must have the same tone. You want to cut the entire brass section out of the orchestra despite most of the music in an eight year period (the entire 3.0/3.5 period) having been dominated by brass players including in the Realms. Yes you're free to [I]prefer[/I] the strings - but the brass are still part of the orchestra. Secret Harpers Everywhere? That sounds like a perfect match for the tone of the Realms. I'm just missing one piece of the puzzle - a time machine to reverse the entire last 25 years and bring us back to a time when TSR still existed. And even then the idea that no wizard could have possibly made something like Revel's End (which by the way was made for the upcoming movie before going into Frostmaiden and now here) would have been gatekeeping. [/QUOTE]
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