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Raiders of the Serpent Sea - Third Party 5E Review
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<blockquote data-quote="TheSword" data-source="post: 9208541" data-attributes="member: 6879661"><p>So having bought the book, I thought I would do a bit of fact checking to see if indeed it was as bad or flawed as you seemed to be saying it was. Seeing someone producing a creative work to benefit the community called ‘garbage’ and a ‘failed writer’ raises my hackles. I have to say, a lot of your flaws seem to be result of missing out elements of the text, misreading elements or treating the text like a computer program (the exact criticism you give the writers) making a suggestion does not mean that this is the only resolution.</p><p></p><p>I'll go through your criticisms one by one.</p><p></p><p></p><p>It is explained in the introduction to the chapter that Hel is kind. She also arranges a specific warning to the Party by sending a patrol to warn them not to attack people (see below). They also get a warning if they attack anyone on the boat.</p><p></p><p>[ATTACH=full]336089[/ATTACH]</p><p></p><p>The Horn is a reward from Siddhe. It is a gift from her at the end of the segment. Until then its kept on the Island of Broken things. There is no reason the party would need to know about it before.</p><p></p><p>The skill checks are suggested as a method of resolution - but they aren't described as absolute requirements. For instance Mera gets upset when she recalls her nail being clipped. The text states that a DC 13 Persuasion check calms her down (not difficult) but it doesn't say that its the only way of calming her down. Not sure why you think this resolution is gated do you expect the writers to list all the ways people could calm down a child?</p><p></p><p></p><p>You've cropped out the section that explains the situation. There are no witchbeetles in the underworld unless the Infestation After Death event takes place which is triggered by Siddhe's death. If it has and the PCs haven't found and dealt with the beetle spies then the following happens.</p><p></p><p>[ATTACH=full]336117[/ATTACH]</p><p>So the beetles are conditional on the PCs bringing them in. If they don't bring them in, they aren't seen on Regalus' cloak. Hence the text.</p><p></p><p></p><p>It is signposted. A patrol warns the party not to affect the dead as mentioned above.</p><p></p><p>The plot isn't linear - its gated. The underworld is spread into three parts - gated behind the bridge and the gate to the town. However both these can be overcome and obstacles are detailed to make this still a challenge. I don't see the problem with an adventure trying to funnel the party to a specific NPC encounter. Outside of these gates the party are free to explore sub-areas as they like. Gating areas is a pretty standard way of crafting adventures. Particularly when the NPC encounter that forms the gate itself has multiple resolutions.</p><p></p><p></p><p>The reinforcements are there to create pressure to move on. The prisoners on the island are expressly described as hostile because they are working with Regulus. This area is a prison for wicked souls. It doesn't seem unreasonable for there to be a lot. This is functional infinity not literal infinity a new group only arrives once every 5 rounds. How long would you party be willing to fight them for no reward? 20 rounds, 50 rounds? If a party of 8th level characters can't defeat a 60hp CR2 <strong>shield wall</strong> a <strong>priest </strong>or a <strong>mage </strong>in 5 rounds or at least obstruct them then they have bigger problems. Particularly as the wicked souls can't leave their island prison.</p><p></p><p></p><p>The souls are just dead people, taking on their previous forms when they pass into Dead Town. They aren't something out God of War. As mentioned previously the PCs are expressly warned by a patrol not to be unkind. On the other hand the folks on the Isle of the Wicked (clue is in the name) are clearly and expressly not nice folks. If that is in any doubt then there are several prisoners the PCs can talk to/save who explain where they are and the situation with Regulus.</p><p></p><p></p><p>They're wicked folks... the serpents just underscores that. Serpent pits are a pretty common Viking trope if I recall. I would imagine it plays out with the PCs retaliating, escaping or getting the Wicked on side through magic, bribery or some other method. You're getting far too hung up on a slow dribble of reinforcements easily dealt with.</p><p></p><p>This isn't really the case is it?</p><p></p><p>This isn't Hel's choice. The default is that Siddhe doesn't become the Goddess of the Dead, unless the PCs persuade her otherwise. The likelihood of their success is improved based on their actions earlier in the segment. How is that not the PC's getting to make the choice?</p><p></p><p>There is guidance. Hollow Hel is described as a <em>simulacrum </em>in several places. She even turns to snow if killed. So half hp (237). Otherwise identical.</p><p></p><p>Hollow Hel only fights for 5 rounds. She only targets the PCs once Regulus is defeated - he's a CR 9 creature with 150 hp and several defences so unlikely to drop in the first round, probably not the second. Even if she does have several rounds to attack its highly unlikely she would kill PCs in only a couple of rounds. She still needs to hit. Despite this the section is described as a chance to fight a goddess. I have no idea why you would play her in a carefully tactical way to kill specific PCs rather than spread the attacks around.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You described this as the worst segment and said I should hang on until then. There are always three versions of every Adventure Campaign. The version from the writers eyes. The version in print and the version in the reader's eyes. I definitely think there are a some elements of both Odyssey of the Dragon Lords and Raiders of the Serpent Sea layout (The BBEG encounters being grouped in the introduction for instance) which can lead to things being missed, but once its recognised then it does make sense. I personally didn't use most of the ones from OOTDL.</p><p></p><p>Despite that, it really feels like you've got a negative filter on your eyes that are picking out problems that really aren't problems as written. Of course you could say that the way it is written is arcane and easy to miss these things. That might be the case but I've read the section for about an hour and seemed to work out these answers. Are you sure you aren't looking for problems not looking for the answers.</p><p></p><p>Author's style is always going to be a personal thing, its going to chime with some people more or less than others. However I find fault with your claim that the people writing this are failed and the plot is garbage. Or with the idea that $25 is a lot of money for something like this. It really isn't. It came up in the Alexandrian thread but a little humility when reviewing a product you haven't written isn't a big ask. You've made mistakes in the review and come to a fairly damning conclusion as a result. Even then I'm not sure the mistakes you've pointed out would even stop me playing it if they were true - they're pretty minor even as written.</p><p></p><p>Haven't decided to do a fact check on the earlier chapters or not. Will probably read the first part of the review again and see how it compares.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="TheSword, post: 9208541, member: 6879661"] So having bought the book, I thought I would do a bit of fact checking to see if indeed it was as bad or flawed as you seemed to be saying it was. Seeing someone producing a creative work to benefit the community called ‘garbage’ and a ‘failed writer’ raises my hackles. I have to say, a lot of your flaws seem to be result of missing out elements of the text, misreading elements or treating the text like a computer program (the exact criticism you give the writers) making a suggestion does not mean that this is the only resolution. I'll go through your criticisms one by one. It is explained in the introduction to the chapter that Hel is kind. She also arranges a specific warning to the Party by sending a patrol to warn them not to attack people (see below). They also get a warning if they attack anyone on the boat. [ATTACH type="full" alt="Defending the dead.png"]336089[/ATTACH] The Horn is a reward from Siddhe. It is a gift from her at the end of the segment. Until then its kept on the Island of Broken things. There is no reason the party would need to know about it before. The skill checks are suggested as a method of resolution - but they aren't described as absolute requirements. For instance Mera gets upset when she recalls her nail being clipped. The text states that a DC 13 Persuasion check calms her down (not difficult) but it doesn't say that its the only way of calming her down. Not sure why you think this resolution is gated do you expect the writers to list all the ways people could calm down a child? You've cropped out the section that explains the situation. There are no witchbeetles in the underworld unless the Infestation After Death event takes place which is triggered by Siddhe's death. If it has and the PCs haven't found and dealt with the beetle spies then the following happens. [ATTACH type="full" alt="infestation.jpg"]336117[/ATTACH] So the beetles are conditional on the PCs bringing them in. If they don't bring them in, they aren't seen on Regalus' cloak. Hence the text. It is signposted. A patrol warns the party not to affect the dead as mentioned above. The plot isn't linear - its gated. The underworld is spread into three parts - gated behind the bridge and the gate to the town. However both these can be overcome and obstacles are detailed to make this still a challenge. I don't see the problem with an adventure trying to funnel the party to a specific NPC encounter. Outside of these gates the party are free to explore sub-areas as they like. Gating areas is a pretty standard way of crafting adventures. Particularly when the NPC encounter that forms the gate itself has multiple resolutions. The reinforcements are there to create pressure to move on. The prisoners on the island are expressly described as hostile because they are working with Regulus. This area is a prison for wicked souls. It doesn't seem unreasonable for there to be a lot. This is functional infinity not literal infinity a new group only arrives once every 5 rounds. How long would you party be willing to fight them for no reward? 20 rounds, 50 rounds? If a party of 8th level characters can't defeat a 60hp CR2 [B]shield wall[/B] a [B]priest [/B]or a [B]mage [/B]in 5 rounds or at least obstruct them then they have bigger problems. Particularly as the wicked souls can't leave their island prison. The souls are just dead people, taking on their previous forms when they pass into Dead Town. They aren't something out God of War. As mentioned previously the PCs are expressly warned by a patrol not to be unkind. On the other hand the folks on the Isle of the Wicked (clue is in the name) are clearly and expressly not nice folks. If that is in any doubt then there are several prisoners the PCs can talk to/save who explain where they are and the situation with Regulus. They're wicked folks... the serpents just underscores that. Serpent pits are a pretty common Viking trope if I recall. I would imagine it plays out with the PCs retaliating, escaping or getting the Wicked on side through magic, bribery or some other method. You're getting far too hung up on a slow dribble of reinforcements easily dealt with. This isn't really the case is it? This isn't Hel's choice. The default is that Siddhe doesn't become the Goddess of the Dead, unless the PCs persuade her otherwise. The likelihood of their success is improved based on their actions earlier in the segment. How is that not the PC's getting to make the choice? There is guidance. Hollow Hel is described as a [I]simulacrum [/I]in several places. She even turns to snow if killed. So half hp (237). Otherwise identical. Hollow Hel only fights for 5 rounds. She only targets the PCs once Regulus is defeated - he's a CR 9 creature with 150 hp and several defences so unlikely to drop in the first round, probably not the second. Even if she does have several rounds to attack its highly unlikely she would kill PCs in only a couple of rounds. She still needs to hit. Despite this the section is described as a chance to fight a goddess. I have no idea why you would play her in a carefully tactical way to kill specific PCs rather than spread the attacks around. You described this as the worst segment and said I should hang on until then. There are always three versions of every Adventure Campaign. The version from the writers eyes. The version in print and the version in the reader's eyes. I definitely think there are a some elements of both Odyssey of the Dragon Lords and Raiders of the Serpent Sea layout (The BBEG encounters being grouped in the introduction for instance) which can lead to things being missed, but once its recognised then it does make sense. I personally didn't use most of the ones from OOTDL. Despite that, it really feels like you've got a negative filter on your eyes that are picking out problems that really aren't problems as written. Of course you could say that the way it is written is arcane and easy to miss these things. That might be the case but I've read the section for about an hour and seemed to work out these answers. Are you sure you aren't looking for problems not looking for the answers. Author's style is always going to be a personal thing, its going to chime with some people more or less than others. However I find fault with your claim that the people writing this are failed and the plot is garbage. Or with the idea that $25 is a lot of money for something like this. It really isn't. It came up in the Alexandrian thread but a little humility when reviewing a product you haven't written isn't a big ask. You've made mistakes in the review and come to a fairly damning conclusion as a result. Even then I'm not sure the mistakes you've pointed out would even stop me playing it if they were true - they're pretty minor even as written. Haven't decided to do a fact check on the earlier chapters or not. Will probably read the first part of the review again and see how it compares. [/QUOTE]
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