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Light Armour Optimisation--a Little Too Much?
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<blockquote data-quote="IcyCool" data-source="post: 3091433" data-attributes="member: 20308"><p>My apologies. There were several items in your statements that I wanted to address individually, and it made the most sense to quote the item, and then address it. In the future, would you prefer me to quote full paragraphs, or the entire post? I ask because I don't think I've ever been accused of that behavior before.</p><p></p><p>I'm sorry you feel that I'm picking your arguements apart out of context. Please show me where I did that, and I will go back in my post and "fully quote" the arguement.</p><p></p><p>If I havent' picked apart one of your arguements out of context, then I'm not sure why you bring this up?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>As a force effect, Mage armor is effective against incorporeal touch attacks, yes. Are there others? (To my knowledge, Bracers of Armor don't).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And therein lies the rub, doesn't it? I think +1 Dodge against all opponents vs. +1 armor against all opponents is superior, and the restrictions of the Dodge feat (+1 Dodge against one opponent) brings that down to equal footing with +1 armor against all. I also think that because Dodge is also a beneficial feat chain entry feat, that puts it on roughly equal footing with LAO.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>On the contrary, I have state that I find +1 normal AC to be roughly equivalent to +1 Dodge vs. a single target. I'm equating dismissal with assigning no value, so saying +1 normal AC has no value would be the same as dismissing it (much like you and Rystil seemed to have done with the feat chain entry part of the Dodge feat, you claim that it does have some value below).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I haven't really considered entry into a prestige class. There appears, however, to be precedent for the value of a feat being altered based on its being in a feat chain. That's why I've included it in my arguement.</p><p></p><p>I should also point out (again) that a number of the factors being debated here are subjective (that's why we value them differently), and perhaps that's the reason for all of the incredulity flying about the thread. I'm hoping that I'm not ruffling feathers here. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You guys are reading what I'm writing, aren't you? I can make my responses shorter and to the point if I'm rambling. I'm serious on this, you two are both very astute posters, and for you to miss or misread this often is rare. I'm fluent in gibberish (I have to be, my wife speaks it on occaision) <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" />, so perhaps that is coming through here (or maybe I'm remembering writing something and I haven't). I'd like to know how I can better communicate my points to you, so any help you can provide would be good.</p><p></p><p>At any rate, I'll repeat, just to make sure I've gotten it out there. I would agree that LAO is better (marginally) than 2 Weapon Defense for a two weapon wielder, and I believe that I addressed this in my previous post with quote below (the last two sentences of it anyway). And, as I have consistently stated, it is flatly better than Dodge if the character has a 24 Dex or higher. (Note: It isn't Dodge, but better, as Dodge still does something that LAO does not.)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think that if you read back over my responses to Rystil, you'll find that I did address that. I can go back and find the exact quote, if you prefer.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Am I the only one with the opinion that not everyone takes Mithril armors? Rystil makes the claim that these people don't care about thier AC, you aren't making the same claim, are you?</p><p></p><p>No, there is no Heavy Armor Optimization feat (I didn't include them because I wasn't sure if Races of Stone would become available at some point). The speed issue was brought up about a month or two after the feats were approved, and no one appeared to care enough to change it, so it has remained in error.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="IcyCool, post: 3091433, member: 20308"] My apologies. There were several items in your statements that I wanted to address individually, and it made the most sense to quote the item, and then address it. In the future, would you prefer me to quote full paragraphs, or the entire post? I ask because I don't think I've ever been accused of that behavior before. I'm sorry you feel that I'm picking your arguements apart out of context. Please show me where I did that, and I will go back in my post and "fully quote" the arguement. If I havent' picked apart one of your arguements out of context, then I'm not sure why you bring this up? As a force effect, Mage armor is effective against incorporeal touch attacks, yes. Are there others? (To my knowledge, Bracers of Armor don't). And therein lies the rub, doesn't it? I think +1 Dodge against all opponents vs. +1 armor against all opponents is superior, and the restrictions of the Dodge feat (+1 Dodge against one opponent) brings that down to equal footing with +1 armor against all. I also think that because Dodge is also a beneficial feat chain entry feat, that puts it on roughly equal footing with LAO. On the contrary, I have state that I find +1 normal AC to be roughly equivalent to +1 Dodge vs. a single target. I'm equating dismissal with assigning no value, so saying +1 normal AC has no value would be the same as dismissing it (much like you and Rystil seemed to have done with the feat chain entry part of the Dodge feat, you claim that it does have some value below). I haven't really considered entry into a prestige class. There appears, however, to be precedent for the value of a feat being altered based on its being in a feat chain. That's why I've included it in my arguement. I should also point out (again) that a number of the factors being debated here are subjective (that's why we value them differently), and perhaps that's the reason for all of the incredulity flying about the thread. I'm hoping that I'm not ruffling feathers here. :) You guys are reading what I'm writing, aren't you? I can make my responses shorter and to the point if I'm rambling. I'm serious on this, you two are both very astute posters, and for you to miss or misread this often is rare. I'm fluent in gibberish (I have to be, my wife speaks it on occaision) ;), so perhaps that is coming through here (or maybe I'm remembering writing something and I haven't). I'd like to know how I can better communicate my points to you, so any help you can provide would be good. At any rate, I'll repeat, just to make sure I've gotten it out there. I would agree that LAO is better (marginally) than 2 Weapon Defense for a two weapon wielder, and I believe that I addressed this in my previous post with quote below (the last two sentences of it anyway). And, as I have consistently stated, it is flatly better than Dodge if the character has a 24 Dex or higher. (Note: It isn't Dodge, but better, as Dodge still does something that LAO does not.) I think that if you read back over my responses to Rystil, you'll find that I did address that. I can go back and find the exact quote, if you prefer. Am I the only one with the opinion that not everyone takes Mithril armors? Rystil makes the claim that these people don't care about thier AC, you aren't making the same claim, are you? No, there is no Heavy Armor Optimization feat (I didn't include them because I wasn't sure if Races of Stone would become available at some point). The speed issue was brought up about a month or two after the feats were approved, and no one appeared to care enough to change it, so it has remained in error. [/QUOTE]
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