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<blockquote data-quote="NotAYakk" data-source="post: 9336298" data-attributes="member: 72555"><p>I mean, I don't care?</p><p></p><p>My goal is to make a monster such that 4 of them are a reasonable challenge for 4 level 1 PCs. They don't have to look like level 1 PCs particularly. The challenge at level 1 can even be easier than at later levels, so long as the difference isn't crazy.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The HP of a level X foe is based on how long we want a level X fight to last and the damage output of level X PCs, not HD.</p><p></p><p>Also, I chose 5 because it is easier to do the math with. How exactly fights are calibrated can be done in a post-pass; if it turns out the ideal monster HP due to some other work should be 5.72 *(Level+1.5) then I'd rather fix that somewhere else than in the base monster building math (like maybe in the encounter building math, or the assumption of how hard the default encounter is) than have annoying math here.</p><p></p><p>(Level+1)*5 means it is easy and fast to take an existing monster and map it over to defensive level, or take a defensive level and map it over to HP, without a huge amount of mathematical skill. And no need for a spreadsheet.</p><p></p><p>I mean, ideally I'd like monster math to be easy enough that I could improvise a level X monster on the fly at a table with 0 prep time.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Levels aren't HD. My goal is not, and I don't think it should be, to build a "monster level system" where monsters gain levels in some chart like a PC class. Nor do I want to make a system where a PC can pick a level X monster and play it in a party with level X players.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So, 5e uses the assumption that monster HD size is based on monster size. This has basically no effect on the actual game, but it sort of feels fun.</p><p></p><p>In 5e, tiny has d4, HD, small has d6 HD, medium d8, large d10, and larger has d12 HD.</p><p></p><p>The challenge of a monster doesn't map to number of HD in 5e, and I have no intention of making that happen.</p><p></p><p>HD have almost no use in 5e other than recovery during a short rest, which few monsters experience in practice.</p><p></p><p>I have spitballed the idea of a HD-based monster balancing system, but that should be more of an OSR-system rebuild than something I'd retrofit onto 5e. (Ie, monsters have HD and stars, where stars refer to how elite they are: each star counts as an extra monster of that HD (or maybe has half an extra monster?); PCs have HD, and probably start with 2. You balance encounters by adding up HD.) I don't recommend doing this in 5e, as the game wasn't built around it.</p><p></p><p></p><p>So, monster damage should scale with PC HP and Healing.</p><p>Monster HP and other defences should scale with PC damage.</p><p></p><p>You are scaling monster damage with PC damage, and monster HP with PC HP, which is sort of backwards and only semi works.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The point of having a challenge value that isn't "the level" is that how does a level 2X creature compare to 2 level X creatures?</p><p></p><p>Making a level 2X creature be equivalent to 2 level X creatures in challenge places very strict design requirements on monster and PC damage curves. Those restrictions are not obeyed by 5e. In essence, you can't do it in 5e.</p><p></p><p>You can map level X monsters to a certain Threat value, and level 2 X to another (larger) Threat value, and have encounter building that adds up Threat values. This is sort of like how vanilla 5e XP based encounter building works, but they left in another fiddly bit (encounter size multiplier) which can be eliminated by doing the XP math better.</p><p></p><p>4e has an XP system that is similar to this.</p><p></p><p>In 4e, the power curve of monsters is dominated by +ATK/+DEF modifiers, and it doubles every 4 levels (a level X+4 monster is as dangerous as 2 level X monsters). As 5e's ATK/DEF doesn't scale nearly as fast, you really can't use a similar exponential encounter building system like you do in 4e.</p><p></p><p>That in turn means that 4e's "Build an encounter with a L+2 solider, and 6 L-2 artillery" doesn't work, as the +2/-2 are (in 4e) exponential multipliers on monster threat (x1.4 and x0.7 off baseline). The power curve in 5e isn't exponentially shaped.</p><p></p><p>(Character Power in 5e is closer to linear than it is to exponential.)</p><p></p><p>In 5e, the rough equivalent to the 4e encounter patterns is closer to "Build an encounter with a L*1.5 soldier, and 6 L*0.5 artillery". Most of 5e's power budget comes from more/less HP and more/less damage, not more/less accuracy and more/less AC like 4e.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="NotAYakk, post: 9336298, member: 72555"] I mean, I don't care? My goal is to make a monster such that 4 of them are a reasonable challenge for 4 level 1 PCs. They don't have to look like level 1 PCs particularly. The challenge at level 1 can even be easier than at later levels, so long as the difference isn't crazy. The HP of a level X foe is based on how long we want a level X fight to last and the damage output of level X PCs, not HD. Also, I chose 5 because it is easier to do the math with. How exactly fights are calibrated can be done in a post-pass; if it turns out the ideal monster HP due to some other work should be 5.72 *(Level+1.5) then I'd rather fix that somewhere else than in the base monster building math (like maybe in the encounter building math, or the assumption of how hard the default encounter is) than have annoying math here. (Level+1)*5 means it is easy and fast to take an existing monster and map it over to defensive level, or take a defensive level and map it over to HP, without a huge amount of mathematical skill. And no need for a spreadsheet. I mean, ideally I'd like monster math to be easy enough that I could improvise a level X monster on the fly at a table with 0 prep time. Levels aren't HD. My goal is not, and I don't think it should be, to build a "monster level system" where monsters gain levels in some chart like a PC class. Nor do I want to make a system where a PC can pick a level X monster and play it in a party with level X players. So, 5e uses the assumption that monster HD size is based on monster size. This has basically no effect on the actual game, but it sort of feels fun. In 5e, tiny has d4, HD, small has d6 HD, medium d8, large d10, and larger has d12 HD. The challenge of a monster doesn't map to number of HD in 5e, and I have no intention of making that happen. HD have almost no use in 5e other than recovery during a short rest, which few monsters experience in practice. I have spitballed the idea of a HD-based monster balancing system, but that should be more of an OSR-system rebuild than something I'd retrofit onto 5e. (Ie, monsters have HD and stars, where stars refer to how elite they are: each star counts as an extra monster of that HD (or maybe has half an extra monster?); PCs have HD, and probably start with 2. You balance encounters by adding up HD.) I don't recommend doing this in 5e, as the game wasn't built around it. So, monster damage should scale with PC HP and Healing. Monster HP and other defences should scale with PC damage. You are scaling monster damage with PC damage, and monster HP with PC HP, which is sort of backwards and only semi works. The point of having a challenge value that isn't "the level" is that how does a level 2X creature compare to 2 level X creatures? Making a level 2X creature be equivalent to 2 level X creatures in challenge places very strict design requirements on monster and PC damage curves. Those restrictions are not obeyed by 5e. In essence, you can't do it in 5e. You can map level X monsters to a certain Threat value, and level 2 X to another (larger) Threat value, and have encounter building that adds up Threat values. This is sort of like how vanilla 5e XP based encounter building works, but they left in another fiddly bit (encounter size multiplier) which can be eliminated by doing the XP math better. 4e has an XP system that is similar to this. In 4e, the power curve of monsters is dominated by +ATK/+DEF modifiers, and it doubles every 4 levels (a level X+4 monster is as dangerous as 2 level X monsters). As 5e's ATK/DEF doesn't scale nearly as fast, you really can't use a similar exponential encounter building system like you do in 4e. That in turn means that 4e's "Build an encounter with a L+2 solider, and 6 L-2 artillery" doesn't work, as the +2/-2 are (in 4e) exponential multipliers on monster threat (x1.4 and x0.7 off baseline). The power curve in 5e isn't exponentially shaped. (Character Power in 5e is closer to linear than it is to exponential.) In 5e, the rough equivalent to the 4e encounter patterns is closer to "Build an encounter with a L*1.5 soldier, and 6 L*0.5 artillery". Most of 5e's power budget comes from more/less HP and more/less damage, not more/less accuracy and more/less AC like 4e. [/QUOTE]
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