Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Combat as war, sport, or ??
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8838893" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>This argument seems like it would benefit from a re-focus.</p><p></p><p>There are (at least) two broad approaches to the fiction-mechanics relationship in RPGing.</p><p></p><p>One is to treat the mechanics as a model, in some loose sense, of the fiction, such that the fiction is largely read off the workings of the mechanics. In one version of this, the mechanics are (at least in principle) tightly tuned so that the fiction that gets read off their workings is coherent, verisimilitudinous, etc. The classic exemplars of this are RuneQuest and Role Master.</p><p></p><p>The second version of this first approach is to set the mechanics more or-less-arbitrarily, or perhaps with an eye on mechanical game balance, and then to suck up whatever fiction results, no matter how absurd. I regard 3E D&D and its variants as exemplars of this.</p><p></p><p>The second approach is to have a notion of the fiction prior to the mechanics, and to use the mechanics to mediate and perhaps develop this notion. 4e is a clear example: we have a notion that a giant is tough compared to a 6th level PC, and so stat it as a level 6 solo; and we have a notion that the same giant is not tough compared to an epic-tier PC, and so we stat it as a 21st level minion.</p><p></p><p>Marvel Heroic RP is another example: we don't need the mechanics to tell us that the Hulk is stronger than Aunt May; we know this, and this constrains action declarations and resolutions involving an arm wrestle between the two of them. Only when we're not sure and want to leave the matter open - eg if the Hulk confronts the Thing - do we need to invoke the mechanics.</p><p></p><p>The second approach is obviously "fiction first" in a way that the first is not: the mechanics can't be invoked or applied, to frame a situation, without some prior conception of how it fits into the fiction (eg what tier is the challenge supposed to be?). This will produce a different play experience from the first approach, in which situations can be framed purely mechanically without forming any view about their relationship to the fiction. What can't be done, using the second approach, is to leave it an open question, to be discovered in play, whether or not a framed situation is relevant in some or other fashion to the PCs. Decisions of that sort have to be made as part of the mechanical framing process.</p><p></p><p>The idea that one approach is more meritorious than the other, or that the second approach produces shallow fiction, seems obviously false.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 8838893, member: 42582"] This argument seems like it would benefit from a re-focus. There are (at least) two broad approaches to the fiction-mechanics relationship in RPGing. One is to treat the mechanics as a model, in some loose sense, of the fiction, such that the fiction is largely read off the workings of the mechanics. In one version of this, the mechanics are (at least in principle) tightly tuned so that the fiction that gets read off their workings is coherent, verisimilitudinous, etc. The classic exemplars of this are RuneQuest and Role Master. The second version of this first approach is to set the mechanics more or-less-arbitrarily, or perhaps with an eye on mechanical game balance, and then to suck up whatever fiction results, no matter how absurd. I regard 3E D&D and its variants as exemplars of this. The second approach is to have a notion of the fiction prior to the mechanics, and to use the mechanics to mediate and perhaps develop this notion. 4e is a clear example: we have a notion that a giant is tough compared to a 6th level PC, and so stat it as a level 6 solo; and we have a notion that the same giant is not tough compared to an epic-tier PC, and so we stat it as a 21st level minion. Marvel Heroic RP is another example: we don't need the mechanics to tell us that the Hulk is stronger than Aunt May; we know this, and this constrains action declarations and resolutions involving an arm wrestle between the two of them. Only when we're not sure and want to leave the matter open - eg if the Hulk confronts the Thing - do we need to invoke the mechanics. The second approach is obviously "fiction first" in a way that the first is not: the mechanics can't be invoked or applied, to frame a situation, without some prior conception of how it fits into the fiction (eg what tier is the challenge supposed to be?). This will produce a different play experience from the first approach, in which situations can be framed purely mechanically without forming any view about their relationship to the fiction. What can't be done, using the second approach, is to leave it an open question, to be discovered in play, whether or not a framed situation is relevant in some or other fashion to the PCs. Decisions of that sort have to be made as part of the mechanical framing process. The idea that one approach is more meritorious than the other, or that the second approach produces shallow fiction, seems obviously false. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Combat as war, sport, or ??
Top