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2e Fighter vs Fighter/Thief vs Thief Play Balance
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<blockquote data-quote="Musing Mage" data-source="post: 8573085" data-attributes="member: 7025552"><p>Yes, this is fine. It's clear - attacking from behind while surprised is a backstab.</p><p></p><p>But then this happens:</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This redundant text is what confuses the issue and suddenly there are hoops to jump through.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is exactly the kind of thing that I'm talking about. The way players and DMs bend over backwards to nerf the thief, then subsequently complain about how much they suck.</p><p></p><p>The surprise roll IS the determining factor for whether nor the opponent sees, hears, or is warned by others. The text says 'IF' an enemy sees, hears, or is warned by another. That 'IF' is determined by the surprise roll.</p><p></p><p>Keep it simple - if you have surprise, and you are behind your enemy - you get to backstab. </p><p></p><p>If the enemy sees the thief, it's because the surprise roll failed. No backstab. If they hear the thief approach, it's because surprise failed. No backstab. If warned by another, guess what? Surprise roll, and if no surprise, then no backstab. But if in any of those cases the thief gets to an opponent's rear flank, and the dice indicate surprise, then a backstabbin' we will go.</p><p></p><p>This is the point of surprise. This is why Move Silently or hide in shadows are enhancements to surprise. There is absolutely no need to overcomplicate it with a further set of arbitrary ideas:</p><p></p><p>"Oh, the dice say the enemies are surprised...but the buddy of your target calls out to him and warns him about you, so even though you have the drop and are right behind him, he's just unsurprised enough to screw with your 'mastery of the knife in the back' so you lose out on your class ability, but you can still make a regular attack if you like." <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite11" alt=":rolleyes:" title="Roll eyes :rolleyes:" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":rolleyes:" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Musing Mage, post: 8573085, member: 7025552"] Yes, this is fine. It's clear - attacking from behind while surprised is a backstab. But then this happens: This redundant text is what confuses the issue and suddenly there are hoops to jump through. This is exactly the kind of thing that I'm talking about. The way players and DMs bend over backwards to nerf the thief, then subsequently complain about how much they suck. The surprise roll IS the determining factor for whether nor the opponent sees, hears, or is warned by others. The text says 'IF' an enemy sees, hears, or is warned by another. That 'IF' is determined by the surprise roll. Keep it simple - if you have surprise, and you are behind your enemy - you get to backstab. If the enemy sees the thief, it's because the surprise roll failed. No backstab. If they hear the thief approach, it's because surprise failed. No backstab. If warned by another, guess what? Surprise roll, and if no surprise, then no backstab. But if in any of those cases the thief gets to an opponent's rear flank, and the dice indicate surprise, then a backstabbin' we will go. This is the point of surprise. This is why Move Silently or hide in shadows are enhancements to surprise. There is absolutely no need to overcomplicate it with a further set of arbitrary ideas: "Oh, the dice say the enemies are surprised...but the buddy of your target calls out to him and warns him about you, so even though you have the drop and are right behind him, he's just unsurprised enough to screw with your 'mastery of the knife in the back' so you lose out on your class ability, but you can still make a regular attack if you like." :rolleyes: [/QUOTE]
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