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D&D (2024) Greyhawk Confirmed. Tell Me Why.

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
I think Greyhawk can deliver that, I think it can deliver fun and whimsy and even silliness at times, but it does have to be careful since it would be so easy for it to fall down the other path, because people often mistake "Grim" for serious or well-done.
Ironically, it was the very "white picket fence" that caused a lot of this--or, rather, how enforced the white picket fence was.

For some 50ish years, art languished under self- or even government-imposed censorship that harshly punished anything which showed a world less than squeaky-clean. It wasn't just that villains were bad and heroes were good; it was that villains were definitionally bad and heroes likewise definitionally good; neither was allowed to have any nuance, and they sure as hell weren't allowed to do anything "inappropriate" unless they got punished for it (which meant, of course, that only villains could). Of course, "inappropriate" back then included things like interracial relationships or the very idea of being gay; queer-coded villains arise from that. Two entire generations under a yoke like that. Of course the dam broke.

Unfortunately, your last clause there was the natural result of this. We had lived in a world without shadow for so long, any darkness was a sickening relief, and the earliest works brave enough to take on those censorship codes (Some Like It Hot, original Star Trek's Uhura/Kirk kiss, the God Loves, Man Kills comic, the Watchmen graphic novel, The Dark Knight Returns, the Spider-man comic tackling depression that I can't remember the title of, etc.) really were brave and effortful....and also tragically easy to misread. Watchmen isn't about how powers inherently make terrible people or that being a superhero inherently makes you a fascist jerk--it's about how people who get high on their own supply stop being able to see the real human element, the compassion and understanding, literally dehumanizing themselves and, in the process, failing to be able to see humanity as human in the process.

But the natural result of a literary revolution is literary copycats. It's not inherently a rise of schlocky crap, either; it's just natural that a new phenomenon that does something cool inspires others to think in similar ways. What this did with the "Dark Age of comics"--and the wider world of TV, film, novels, etc.--was create a pervasive pessimism and cynicism. The old ways were naive; the new ones had woken up from the plastic, hollow, enforced nature of the prior era. The only possible way to be intellectual, to actually show thought, was obviously to always and eternally reject anything and everything that came before this great awakening.

We are, now, in the throes of the new enforced thing. It's been 40 years--nearly two full generations. The enforcement, this time, has come from within, rather than without, but it's still there, just enforced by social judgment and condescension rather than "moral guardians" and censorship. And that means we're starting to see the push in the other direction. Daring to believe that ideals can matter. Pushing back against the unthinking embrace of dark-for-dark's-sake.

That's why I call my fantasy choices "chiaroscuro." For half a century, we had light which forbade any darkness, no matter what, and it washed out every detail until there was nothing left. For nearly half a century after that, we've had darkness that permits no light, and it has erased all ability to see anything at all, leaving nothing left. It is only when we bring light into dark places that we can see anything at all. We add darkness to add contrast--but many, many creators have made the fatal mistake of assuming that it is always the case that more darkness = more contrast, and that's simply false. We as authors need both the darkness and the light--and a balance between them does not always mean equal amounts of both.

But we should not fight a revolution. "Defeating" the cynicism that came before is both unnecessary and counter-productive. Questioning it, however, is necessary and productive. To claim victory absolute over the plain of meaning is to spell one's own doom. What we need is victory reconstructive: not to crush the oppressive darkness or oppressive light, but to give each its place and forbid either from hegemonic conquest.
 

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Ironically, it was the very "white picket fence" that caused a lot of this--or, rather, how enforced the white picket fence was.

For some 50ish years, art languished under self- or even government-imposed censorship that harshly punished anything which showed a world less than squeaky-clean. It wasn't just that villains were bad and heroes were good; it was that villains were definitionally bad and heroes likewise definitionally good; neither was allowed to have any nuance, and they sure as hell weren't allowed to do anything "inappropriate" unless they got punished for it (which meant, of course, that only villains could). Of course, "inappropriate" back then included things like interracial relationships or the very idea of being gay; queer-coded villains arise from that. Two entire generations under a yoke like that. Of course the dam broke.

Unfortunately, your last clause there was the natural result of this. We had lived in a world without shadow for so long, any darkness was a sickening relief, and the earliest works brave enough to take on those censorship codes (Some Like It Hot, original Star Trek's Uhura/Kirk kiss, the God Loves, Man Kills comic, the Watchmen graphic novel, The Dark Knight Returns, the Spider-man comic tackling depression that I can't remember the title of, etc.) really were brave and effortful....and also tragically easy to misread. Watchmen isn't about how powers inherently make terrible people or that being a superhero inherently makes you a fascist jerk--it's about how people who get high on their own supply stop being able to see the real human element, the compassion and understanding, literally dehumanizing themselves and, in the process, failing to be able to see humanity as human in the process.

But the natural result of a literary revolution is literary copycats. It's not inherently a rise of schlocky crap, either; it's just natural that a new phenomenon that does something cool inspires others to think in similar ways. What this did with the "Dark Age of comics"--and the wider world of TV, film, novels, etc.--was create a pervasive pessimism and cynicism. The old ways were naive; the new ones had woken up from the plastic, hollow, enforced nature of the prior era. The only possible way to be intellectual, to actually show thought, was obviously to always and eternally reject anything and everything that came before this great awakening.

We are, now, in the throes of the new enforced thing. It's been 40 years--nearly two full generations. The enforcement, this time, has come from within, rather than without, but it's still there, just enforced by social judgment and condescension rather than "moral guardians" and censorship. And that means we're starting to see the push in the other direction. Daring to believe that ideals can matter. Pushing back against the unthinking embrace of dark-for-dark's-sake.

That's why I call my fantasy choices "chiaroscuro." For half a century, we had light which forbade any darkness, no matter what, and it washed out every detail until there was nothing left. For nearly half a century after that, we've had darkness that permits no light, and it has erased all ability to see anything at all, leaving nothing left. It is only when we bring light into dark places that we can see anything at all. We add darkness to add contrast--but many, many creators have made the fatal mistake of assuming that it is always the case that more darkness = more contrast, and that's simply false. We as authors need both the darkness and the light--and a balance between them does not always mean equal amounts of both.

But we should not fight a revolution. "Defeating" the cynicism that came before is both unnecessary and counter-productive. Questioning it, however, is necessary and productive. To claim victory absolute over the plain of meaning is to spell one's own doom. What we need is victory reconstructive: not to crush the oppressive darkness or oppressive light, but to give each its place and forbid either from hegemonic conquest.
...i think you just explained how HFY was born.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Both.

Is WOTC going to include "Traditionally orcs are almost all evil in Greyhawk. This is how you can introduce a good nation or city-state of a traditional evil species like orcs of goblins..." in the DMG.

Ah yes, ALMOST all evil, except for those that aren't. For example: The orcs of the Baklunish nation of Zeif are very different from their brethren, having very nearly been assimilated into human society, though they are still regarded as lower-class.

Of course, I'm just absolutely certain that the chapter for an example setting is going to cover every single species in the book, explaining that Greyhawk has orcs, trolls, giants, goblins, hobgoblins, humans, elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings, mermaids... good thing they have a whole chapter.
 

AdmundfortGeographer

Getting lost in fantasy maps
But it's literally giving DM's more work for nostalgia points.
2024 DMG Greyhawk’s entirety is going to be as a chapter as a sample setting, which you are speculating what it will present. It is not a full box set, much less an entire hard cover.

Any setting summarized in a chapter necessarily gives DMs work.

Whatever any DM does with 2024 sample-Greyhawk is going to an awesome Greyhawk even if no one at the table ever finds what lore was left on the editing room floor for space constraints.
 

Every single subsetting connected to the Radiant Citadel was based on a real world culture and we already know which are which. First adventure is fantasy Thialand for example.
Yes, but they are not insensitive charactertures.

And the Radiant Citadel itself is not based on anything remotely real world, so it matters not if it is a utopia or a dystopia.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
If even WOTC does broad strokes, Greyhawk has a history.

So the onus is one WOTC to either explain "Where the heck did Dragonborn come from?" or teach DMs how answer that question.

Is Greyhawk getting Spellplagued?

I know next to nothing about Greyhawk, despite owning a gazeteer for them, but... is that really a difficult question?

1716010371401.jpeg


Ever since it was designed, Greyhawk has been a penisula on a much much larger continent. Where did the Dragonborn come from? From the other side of the Sea of Dust, or the Dry Steppes. That section of the continent that was never filled in.

Or they came from across the ocean, from a landmass out of sight.

Neither is difficult to do. Neither even NEEDS to be done, anymore than I need to explain why there are now new types of never before seen trolls or vampires that were published before, or why the psychic platypus and blue-skinned goblin are missing.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
I'll just say that having an example setting where a party of 4 can have species and classes from the PHB and over half of characters having no lore links to the setting due to species/class choice is a dangerous game.

I mean that the #1 reason DMs ban races and classes.

The PHB has a gazeteers for multiple settings inside of it. If the example of Greyhawk on how to build a setting is somehow completely incompatible with the book for some reason that anyone in the party cares about... then they can just use one of the other settings.
 

Vaalingrade

Legend
Ah yes, ALMOST all evil, except for those that aren't. For example: The orcs of the Baklunish nation of Zeif are very different from their brethren, having very nearly been assimilated into human society, though they are still regarded as lower-class.
Maybe I'm giving WotC too much credit, but I rather doubt they're going to put a big flashing sign in the DMG highlighting one of the most controversial elements still plaguing the game. I'm hoping they learned from the Hadozee.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
I know next to nothing about Greyhawk, despite owning a gazeteer for them, but... is that really a difficult question?

View attachment 363803

Ever since it was designed, Greyhawk has been a penisula on a much much larger continent. Where did the Dragonborn come from? From the other side of the Sea of Dust, or the Dry Steppes. That section of the continent that was never filled in.

Or they came from across the ocean, from a landmass out of sight.

Neither is difficult to do. Neither even NEEDS to be done, anymore than I need to explain why there are now new types of never before seen trolls or vampires that were published before, or why the psychic platypus and blue-skinned goblin are missing.
Player characters tend to need more framing and bonds to the setting than random monsters. They are going to be in every session and who that are in the setting matters a lot more than a random 4 armed blue gorilla that is killed in a fight.

In shocked that so many people are saying "Nah. It'll be fine" when not having a place in a setting is a Top 5 reasons DMs ban races and classes.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Ironically, it was the very "white picket fence" that caused a lot of this--or, rather, how enforced the white picket fence was.

For some 50ish years, art languished under self- or even government-imposed censorship that harshly punished anything which showed a world less than squeaky-clean. It wasn't just that villains were bad and heroes were good; it was that villains were definitionally bad and heroes likewise definitionally good; neither was allowed to have any nuance, and they sure as hell weren't allowed to do anything "inappropriate" unless they got punished for it (which meant, of course, that only villains could). Of course, "inappropriate" back then included things like interracial relationships or the very idea of being gay; queer-coded villains arise from that. Two entire generations under a yoke like that. Of course the dam broke.

Unfortunately, your last clause there was the natural result of this. We had lived in a world without shadow for so long, any darkness was a sickening relief, and the earliest works brave enough to take on those censorship codes (Some Like It Hot, original Star Trek's Uhura/Kirk kiss, the God Loves, Man Kills comic, the Watchmen graphic novel, The Dark Knight Returns, the Spider-man comic tackling depression that I can't remember the title of, etc.) really were brave and effortful....and also tragically easy to misread. Watchmen isn't about how powers inherently make terrible people or that being a superhero inherently makes you a fascist jerk--it's about how people who get high on their own supply stop being able to see the real human element, the compassion and understanding, literally dehumanizing themselves and, in the process, failing to be able to see humanity as human in the process.

But the natural result of a literary revolution is literary copycats. It's not inherently a rise of schlocky crap, either; it's just natural that a new phenomenon that does something cool inspires others to think in similar ways. What this did with the "Dark Age of comics"--and the wider world of TV, film, novels, etc.--was create a pervasive pessimism and cynicism. The old ways were naive; the new ones had woken up from the plastic, hollow, enforced nature of the prior era. The only possible way to be intellectual, to actually show thought, was obviously to always and eternally reject anything and everything that came before this great awakening.

We are, now, in the throes of the new enforced thing. It's been 40 years--nearly two full generations. The enforcement, this time, has come from within, rather than without, but it's still there, just enforced by social judgment and condescension rather than "moral guardians" and censorship. And that means we're starting to see the push in the other direction. Daring to believe that ideals can matter. Pushing back against the unthinking embrace of dark-for-dark's-sake.

That's why I call my fantasy choices "chiaroscuro." For half a century, we had light which forbade any darkness, no matter what, and it washed out every detail until there was nothing left. For nearly half a century after that, we've had darkness that permits no light, and it has erased all ability to see anything at all, leaving nothing left. It is only when we bring light into dark places that we can see anything at all. We add darkness to add contrast--but many, many creators have made the fatal mistake of assuming that it is always the case that more darkness = more contrast, and that's simply false. We as authors need both the darkness and the light--and a balance between them does not always mean equal amounts of both.

But we should not fight a revolution. "Defeating" the cynicism that came before is both unnecessary and counter-productive. Questioning it, however, is necessary and productive. To claim victory absolute over the plain of meaning is to spell one's own doom. What we need is victory reconstructive: not to crush the oppressive darkness or oppressive light, but to give each its place and forbid either from hegemonic conquest.

Beautifully said.
 

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