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D&D (2024) Do you plan to adopt D&D5.5One2024Redux?
- Thread starter Morrus
- Start date
Rystefn
Explorer
1) Optional rules are still rules. So if you were correct about this, then it would still be just as RAW as proficiencies are.
2) You are incorrect about this. Individual xp rewards are an optional rule. Story awards and survival awards are not.
3) But that's also not quite correct, because individual xp rewards for class-based actions are also not an optional rule, and none of them are for killing monsters (if you're about to say something about warrior xp, see below)
4) Standard monster XP awards in AD&D 2nd edition (and the class-based rewards for warriors) are explicitly not for killing monsters, they are for defeating their foes. The DMG very specifically says that "The characters must be victorious over the creature, which is not necessarily synonymous with killing it." It literally gives as an example that persuading an enemy to leave a village alone instead of attacking counts as a victory.
mamba
Legend
are they backpedaling? I don’t think I saw them in the playtest, but to me that just means there is nothing to discuss here. WotC either keeps them the same or knows what they are doing with them (which theoretically could go either way, even though I am not expecting a change)
Rystefn
Explorer
AD&D 1e used xp for treasure and gold, xp for defeating traps and outwitting monsters, and bonus xp for dying (which yeah, that one's likely not amounting to much), in addition to xp for combat. If you had enough money to afford to pay for your leveling up, then the xp for treasure and coin was coming out to a meaningful percentage of your overall total.
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
I always forget about the XP for gold. Nobody I played with back then used that rule.
What do you mean by "go back to"? You are trying to give 5e credit for something it is not due
STORY AWARDS
The PCs have rescued the constable’s son from the troll lair. They
leave the lair and stop their current quest so they can return the
young boy to his home and parents. Do they get experience points
for this?
Some DMs want the answer to be “Of course they do.” To
accomplish this, you need to set up a system in which you can
award XP for accomplishing goals and for actions and encounters
that don’t involve combat.
Sometimes you may want to estimate experience point awards
for actions that normally don’t result in an XP award under the
standard system. These are called story awards, and they should
only be used by an experienced DM.
The PCs have rescued the constable’s son from the troll lair. They
leave the lair and stop their current quest so they can return the
young boy to his home and parents. Do they get experience points
for this?
Some DMs want the answer to be “Of course they do.” To
accomplish this, you need to set up a system in which you can
award XP for accomplishing goals and for actions and encounters
that don’t involve combat.
Sometimes you may want to estimate experience point awards
for actions that normally don’t result in an XP award under the
standard system. These are called story awards, and they should
only be used by an experienced DM.
CRs for Noncombat Encounters
You could award experience points for solving a puzzle, learning a
secret, convincing an NPC to help, or escaping from a powerful
foe. Mysteries, puzzles, and roleplaying encounters (such as nego-
tiations) can be assigned Challenge Ratings, but these sorts of
awards require more ad hoc ruling on the DM’s part.
Challenge Ratings for noncombat encounters are even more of
a variable than traps. A roleplaying encounter should only be con-
sidered a challenge at all if there’s some risk involved and success
or failure really matters. For example, the PCs encounter an NPC
who knows the secret password to get into a magical prison that
holds their companion. The PCs must get the information out of
her—if they don’t, their friend remains trapped forever. In an-
other instance, the characters must cross a raging river by wading,
swimming, or climbing across a rope. If they fail, they can’t get to
where the magic gem lies, and if they fail spectacularly, they are
washed away down the river.
You might see such situations as having a Challenge Rating
equal to the level of the party. Simple puzzles and minor encoun-
ters should have a CR lower than the party’s level, if they are worth
an award at all. They should never have a CR higher than the
party’s level. As a rule, you probably don’t want to hand out a lot of
experience for these kinds of encounters unless you intentionally
want to run a low-combat game.
In the end, this kind of story award feels pretty much like a
standard award. Don’t ever feel obligated to give out XP for an en-
counter that you don’t feel was much of a challenge. Remember
that the key word in “experience award” is award. The PCs should
have to do something impressive to get an award.
You could award experience points for solving a puzzle, learning a
secret, convincing an NPC to help, or escaping from a powerful
foe. Mysteries, puzzles, and roleplaying encounters (such as nego-
tiations) can be assigned Challenge Ratings, but these sorts of
awards require more ad hoc ruling on the DM’s part.
Challenge Ratings for noncombat encounters are even more of
a variable than traps. A roleplaying encounter should only be con-
sidered a challenge at all if there’s some risk involved and success
or failure really matters. For example, the PCs encounter an NPC
who knows the secret password to get into a magical prison that
holds their companion. The PCs must get the information out of
her—if they don’t, their friend remains trapped forever. In an-
other instance, the characters must cross a raging river by wading,
swimming, or climbing across a rope. If they fail, they can’t get to
where the magic gem lies, and if they fail spectacularly, they are
washed away down the river.
You might see such situations as having a Challenge Rating
equal to the level of the party. Simple puzzles and minor encoun-
ters should have a CR lower than the party’s level, if they are worth
an award at all. They should never have a CR higher than the
party’s level. As a rule, you probably don’t want to hand out a lot of
experience for these kinds of encounters unless you intentionally
want to run a low-combat game.
In the end, this kind of story award feels pretty much like a
standard award. Don’t ever feel obligated to give out XP for an en-
counter that you don’t feel was much of a challenge. Remember
that the key word in “experience award” is award. The PCs should
have to do something impressive to get an award.
EXPERIENCE AWARDS
When the party defeats monsters, you award the characters expe-
rience points (XP). The more dangerous the monsters, compared
to the party’s level, the more XP the characters earn. The PCs split
the XP between themselves, and each character increases in level
as his or her personal XP total increases.
You need to calculate XP awards during the course of an adven-
ture, whether it’s one you wrote or one you purchased. You may
wish to award experience points at the end of a session to enable
players to advance their characters in level if they have enough
experience points. Alternatively, you may wish to give out XP
awards at the beginning of the game session following the one in
which the characters earned it. This gives you time between ses-
sions to use these rules and determine the experience award.
As part of determining experience point awards, you need to
break the game down into encounters and then break the encoun-
ters down into parts. If you’re using monsters from the Monster
Manual, some of the work has already been done for you. Each
monster in that book has a Challenge Rating (CR) that, when
compared to party level, translates directly into an XP award.
A Challenge Rating is a measure of how easy or difficult a mon-
ster or trap is to overcome. Challenge Ratings are used in Chapter
3: Adventures to determine Encounter Levels (EL), which in turn
indicate how difficult an encounter (often involving multiple
monsters) is to overcome. A monster is usually overcome by defeat-
ing it in battle, a trap by being disarmed, and so forth.
You must decide when a challenge has been overcome. Usually,
this is simple to do. Did the PCs defeat the enemy in battle? Then
they met the challenge and earned experience points. Other
times, it can be trickier. Suppose the PCs sneak past the sleeping
minotaur to get into the magical vault—did they overcome the
minotaur encounter? If their goal was to get into the vault and the
minotaur was just a guardian, then the answer is probably yes. It’s
up to you to make such judgments.
Only characters who take part in an encounter should gain the
commensurate awards. Characters who died before the encounter
took place, or did not participate for some other reason, earn noth-
ing, even if they are raised or healed later on.
To determine the XP award for an encounter, follow these steps.
1. Determine each character’s level. Don’t forget to account for
ECL (see Monsters as Races, page 172) if any of the characters
are of a powerful race.
2. For each monster defeated, determine that
single monster’s Challenge Rating.
3. Use Table 2–6: Experience Point
Awards (Single Monster) to cross-
reference one character’s level
with the Challenge Rating for
each defeated monster to
find the base XP award.
4. Divide the base XP award by the
number of characters in the party. This is
the amount of XP that one character
receives for helping defeat that monster.
5. Add up all the XP awards for all the
monsters the character helped defeat.
6. Repeat the process for each character.
When the party defeats monsters, you award the characters expe-
rience points (XP). The more dangerous the monsters, compared
to the party’s level, the more XP the characters earn. The PCs split
the XP between themselves, and each character increases in level
as his or her personal XP total increases.
You need to calculate XP awards during the course of an adven-
ture, whether it’s one you wrote or one you purchased. You may
wish to award experience points at the end of a session to enable
players to advance their characters in level if they have enough
experience points. Alternatively, you may wish to give out XP
awards at the beginning of the game session following the one in
which the characters earned it. This gives you time between ses-
sions to use these rules and determine the experience award.
As part of determining experience point awards, you need to
break the game down into encounters and then break the encoun-
ters down into parts. If you’re using monsters from the Monster
Manual, some of the work has already been done for you. Each
monster in that book has a Challenge Rating (CR) that, when
compared to party level, translates directly into an XP award.
A Challenge Rating is a measure of how easy or difficult a mon-
ster or trap is to overcome. Challenge Ratings are used in Chapter
3: Adventures to determine Encounter Levels (EL), which in turn
indicate how difficult an encounter (often involving multiple
monsters) is to overcome. A monster is usually overcome by defeat-
ing it in battle, a trap by being disarmed, and so forth.
You must decide when a challenge has been overcome. Usually,
this is simple to do. Did the PCs defeat the enemy in battle? Then
they met the challenge and earned experience points. Other
times, it can be trickier. Suppose the PCs sneak past the sleeping
minotaur to get into the magical vault—did they overcome the
minotaur encounter? If their goal was to get into the vault and the
minotaur was just a guardian, then the answer is probably yes. It’s
up to you to make such judgments.
Only characters who take part in an encounter should gain the
commensurate awards. Characters who died before the encounter
took place, or did not participate for some other reason, earn noth-
ing, even if they are raised or healed later on.
To determine the XP award for an encounter, follow these steps.
1. Determine each character’s level. Don’t forget to account for
ECL (see Monsters as Races, page 172) if any of the characters
are of a powerful race.
2. For each monster defeated, determine that
single monster’s Challenge Rating.
3. Use Table 2–6: Experience Point
Awards (Single Monster) to cross-
reference one character’s level
with the Challenge Rating for
each defeated monster to
find the base XP award.
4. Divide the base XP award by the
number of characters in the party. This is
the amount of XP that one character
receives for helping defeat that monster.
5. Add up all the XP awards for all the
monsters the character helped defeat.
6. Repeat the process for each character.
It didn't stop there though
Challenge Ratings for Traps
Traps vary considerably. Those presented in this book
(see pages 70–74) have Challenge Ratings as-
signed to them. For traps you and your players
create, as a rule of thumb, assign +1 CR for
every 2d6 points of damage the trap deals.
For magic traps, start at CR 1 and then assign
+1 CR for every 2d6 points of damage the trap
deals or +1 for every level of the spell the trap
simulates. Traps generally shouldn’t have a
Challenge Rating greater than 10.
Overcoming the challenge of a trap
involves encountering the trap, either by
disarming it, avoiding it, or simply sur-
viving the damage it deals. A trap
never discovered or never
bypassed was not encountered
(and hence provides no XP
award).
Traps vary considerably. Those presented in this book
(see pages 70–74) have Challenge Ratings as-
signed to them. For traps you and your players
create, as a rule of thumb, assign +1 CR for
every 2d6 points of damage the trap deals.
For magic traps, start at CR 1 and then assign
+1 CR for every 2d6 points of damage the trap
deals or +1 for every level of the spell the trap
simulates. Traps generally shouldn’t have a
Challenge Rating greater than 10.
Overcoming the challenge of a trap
involves encountering the trap, either by
disarming it, avoiding it, or simply sur-
viving the damage it deals. A trap
never discovered or never
bypassed was not encountered
(and hence provides no XP
award).
What you are lamenting has its own section on dmg39 though
Assigning Ad Hoc XP Awards
Sometimes the XP table doesn’t quite
cover a given situation. If two orcs
are an EL 1 encounter, four orcs EL
3, eight orcs EL 5, and sixteen orcs
EL 7 (maybe), are thirty-two orcs
an EL 9 encounter? A party of 9th
level characters almost certainly
can wipe them out with ease. By 9th
level, a character’s defenses are so
good that a standard orc cannot hit
him or her, and one or two spells
cast by a character of that level
could destroy all thirty-two
orcs. At such a point, your
judgment overrules what-
ever the XP table would
say.
An encoun-
ter so easy that it
uses up none or
almost none of
the PCs’ resources
shouldn’t result in any
XP award at all, while a
dangerous encounter that
the PCs overcome handily
through luck or excellent
strategy is worth full XP. How-
ever, an encounter in which
the PCs defeat something far
above their own level (CRs higher
than their level by eight or more) was
probably the result of fantastic luck or a
unique set of circumstances, and thus a full
XP award may not be appropriate. You’re going
have to make these decisions. As a guideline, the min-
and maximum awards given on Table 2–6: Experi-
Point Awards (Single Monster) for a group of a given
are the least and most XP you should award a group.
Circumstances in your campaign may alter this, however.
decide that an EL 2 encounter is worth at least a little to
Sometimes the XP table doesn’t quite
cover a given situation. If two orcs
are an EL 1 encounter, four orcs EL
3, eight orcs EL 5, and sixteen orcs
EL 7 (maybe), are thirty-two orcs
an EL 9 encounter? A party of 9th
level characters almost certainly
can wipe them out with ease. By 9th
level, a character’s defenses are so
good that a standard orc cannot hit
him or her, and one or two spells
cast by a character of that level
could destroy all thirty-two
orcs. At such a point, your
judgment overrules what-
ever the XP table would
say.
An encoun-
ter so easy that it
uses up none or
almost none of
the PCs’ resources
shouldn’t result in any
XP award at all, while a
dangerous encounter that
the PCs overcome handily
through luck or excellent
strategy is worth full XP. How-
ever, an encounter in which
the PCs defeat something far
above their own level (CRs higher
than their level by eight or more) was
probably the result of fantastic luck or a
unique set of circumstances, and thus a full
XP award may not be appropriate. You’re going
have to make these decisions. As a guideline, the min-
and maximum awards given on Table 2–6: Experi-
Point Awards (Single Monster) for a group of a given
are the least and most XP you should award a group.
Circumstances in your campaign may alter this, however.
decide that an EL 2 encounter is worth at least a little to
That bold bit right there, the italic sentence to either side of it serve to ensure that this is truly up to the GM & should absolutely not be used as a way to pointlessly inflate adventuring day metrics in ways that create problems like the ones we are discussing.
The 2e DMG likewise talks about many of the same things with more brevity in chapter8 pg66-71 & I'm not going to quote specifics given that they start getting mentioned as early as the pretty page 66 chapter introduction. 5e recklessly using the term "encounter" to describe things that are not encounters is not the innovation you are giving it credit for. All it does it breed the sort of confusion that led to me initially quoting the reddit post earlier
Hriston
Dungeon Master of Middle-earth (He/him)
The "Character Origins" UA covered backgrounds. It appears the background feature was to be replaced with the first-level feat, so instead of something that grounds the character in the setting, there's a minor mechanical benefit.
There's no mention of traits, ideals, bonds, or flaws, but the changes to inspiration in that document indicate they would no longer be tied in to that mechanic. I mostly lost interest and stopped paying attention to the playtest at that point.
Corinnguard
Hero
This probably deserves it's own thread, but how many players in 5e actually used the traits, ideals, bonds and flaws they picked out for their character? As far as I can tell, no one in my group uses them.
I did edit my post to reflect the potential for group rewards. I think "killing vs. defeating" for xp is a little pedantic, it generally amounts to the same thing.
Individual Class awards are most definitely optional:
Finally, saying "there are rules if there are optional rules" is kind odd, isn't it? If the DM isn't using an optional rule, then it really doesn't exist by default. It's like rules for parrying or getting 1 attack per level against creatures with less than 1 HD- sure, it's in the DMG, but if you've never played with it because your DM didn't read the section it's in or didn't care for it, then what?
But I'll concede a better way to say it is "there are no default rules for xp for doing anything other than defeating monsters and vague group rewards for completing an adventure".
BTW, as an aside, about NWP's being optional, it's certainly true that the PHB claims that they are. But almost every product after the PHB includes them and seems to assume they are being used. Actually, even in the PHB, the Bard gains several Proficiencies as class features (only saying they don't have to spend anything to get them if the NWP rules are in use).
Demetrios1453
Hero
Playing the 1e Gold Box CRPGs (which I'm thinking about doing again here soon), it's by far the most important contributor to XP.
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