D&D (2024) Rogue's Been in an Awkward Place, And This Survey Might Be Our Last Chance to Let WotC Know.

tetrasodium · Dec 13, 2023

Ruin Explorer said:
They can't Disengage as a Bonus Action that AND Sprint mate, unless they're a Thief. That's the issue. And going over an attacking someone then moving only 15' away from them when you're supposed to "grabbing an artifact" seems nearly certain to counterproductive, no?

Monks, as of the most recent packet anyway, can get both Disengage and Sprint from a single Bonus Action.

Which packet is that in? Maybe Chrome is being a twerp but searching "sharp" didn't bring up anything in packets 6/7/8

Also better than a Monk at ranged is the lowest possible bar lol. They're a class whose entirely damage routine is tied up in melee unless they have specific subclasses.

They absolutely can I believe @mellored was talking about a specific ability that the rogue seems to be getting

pg50 of packet6

But that's not required to disengage & dash in one turn

Take the macguffin as free no action economy object interaction
action or bonus action disengage
The other sprint

5e creates this problem deliberately on phb190 by trying to exempt a bunch of things from action economy & keep them from being at risk of triggering an OA/AoO. Pretty much all if not every one of the UA packets have even doubled down on that through the specific ability referenced as well as the explicit draw or sheath a weapon as part of each attack.

edit: added page#

mellored · Dec 13, 2023

Ruin Explorer said:
They can't Disengage as a Bonus Action that AND Sprint mate, unless they're a Thief. That's the issue. And going over and attacking someone then moving only 15' away from them when you're supposed to "grabbing an artifact" seems nearly certain to counterproductive, no?

You can bonus action disengage and action to dash.

Or you can attack with Withdrawal move half your speed without provoking, then bonus action dash.

Monks are still better. But Rogues can still avoid OA's very well.

Ruin Explorer said:
Which packet is that in? Maybe Chrome is being a twerp but searching "sharp" didn't bring up anything in packets 6/7/8

Expert packet.

Ruin Explorer said:
Also better than a Monk at ranged is the lowest possible bar lol. They're a class whose entirely damage routine is tied up in melee unless they have specific subclasses.

Correct.

But you can't just say Rogues are worse than monks for movement, and ignore that they are better than monks at range.

Vikingkingq · Dec 14, 2023

tetrasodium said:
He tends to detail how he goes about calculating the damage & explains all of the assumptions (ie estimated hit chance or whatever). Just recalculate those numbers with a rapier instead of greatsword & strip out the impact of any feats/abilities that rely on strength or heavy weapons.

What's the DPR on using the Nick trick instead?

Ruin Explorer · Dec 14, 2023

mellored said:
But you can't just say Rogues are worse than monks for movement, and ignore that they are better than monks at range.

Of course I can.

It's utterly wrong and a dangerously bad argument, that actually spits on the idea of fair and rational discussion to say I have to mention every single thing every single time, even when they're unrelated issues.

That's completely senseless.

Comparisons apply where they apply. If you want to fill in a table with all the possible comparisons, be my guest, but don't suggest I have to fill it in for you. That's unreasonable.

Gorck · Dec 14, 2023

A simple way to add DPR to the rogue class would be to give them Extra Attack at level 5. Barbarians, Fighters, Monks, Paladins, and Rangers (ya know, the other martial classes) all get it, so why not Rogues? The actual damage from the attack won’t add a ton of damage, but having a second chance to do Sneak Attack (in case you miss on your first attack) should up the DPR a bit.

mellored · Dec 14, 2023

Also, hiding is now a DC 15 check.
Past level 7, ranged rogues should be getting advantage on nearly every attack with their bonus action.
And more often than not have advantage before that too.

So quick comparison at level 11, which strongly favors the fighter.
With 60% chance to hit, 20 Dex and sharpshooter.
Ignoring subclass.

7d6 (24.5) + 5 = 29.5
*.84 = 24.78 (advantage)
+24.5 * 0.98 = 2.401
= 26.901 DPR @ 320'

(1d8+5) * 3 = 28.5
*.7 = 19.95 (archery style)
+4.5 * .05 = .225
= 20.175 DPR @ 600'
+ action surge

A fighter would have to action surge every 3 turns to keep up with the rogue in ranged damage. And that probably won't happen.

James Gasik · Dec 14, 2023

tetrasodium said:
Like Death strike bracers or lesser truedeath crystals & Greater truedeath Crystals? Unfortunately I don't see the need for such things until wotc is willing to make some changes. Changes that make those an option would however do a lot of good for encounter/adventure design by adjusting how the mere threat of some monsters creates

The Short Sword of Subtlety I think was another one.

James Gasik · Dec 14, 2023

Ruin Explorer said:
This strongly suggests you are being theoretical and haven't thought this through. In current 5E it's objectively wrong. Sneak Attack only applies to 30ft out.

Wait, what? That's not what my PHB says:

Stalker0 · Dec 14, 2023

Ruin Explorer said:
They can't Disengage as a Bonus Action that AND Sprint mate, unless they're a Thief. That's the issue.

Of course you can. Disengage as bonus, dash as action.

tetrasodium · Dec 14, 2023

Vikingkingq said:
What's the DPR on using the Nick trick instead?

More than good enough & quite a few people seem to have said similar already. You are the one who seems to be saying otherwise. I only told you about TM generally taking the time to show & breakdown the math so you can get enough numbers & understanding to see how you can calculate similar.

edit: Yea nick or whatever makes for valid options works too

D&D (2024) Rogue's Been in an Awkward Place, And This Survey Might Be Our Last Chance to Let WotC Know.

tetrasodium

Legend

mellored

Legend

Vikingkingq

Adventurer

Ruin Explorer

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Gorck

Prince of Dorkness

mellored

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James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun

Stalker0

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tetrasodium

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