D&D 5E [+] Ways to fix the caster / non-caster gap

Raiztt said:

This conversation goes around and around and around but it's completely settled:

Different people have different base expectations/assumptions about their game world and what is possible. Done. Never the twain shall meet.

Click to expand...

Micah Sweet said:

You realize you would also have to get all the caster fans to agree with this? That works for your own table, not so much for anything beyond that, at least as you state it.

Click to expand...

Ultimately, balance is the reasonable compromise position. All classes balance, martial or magical. It's fair.

Don't think of it as getting caster fans - who, yes, enjoy playing far more powerful classes alongside other players who chose trap classes, and have no reason to approve any change for any reason - to agree to a game that treats everyone fairly instead of giving them a privilege (or or hard-earned reward, in the case CharOP system mastery, rather than just happening to want to play Gandalf or Harry Potter). Think of it as inviting them to empathize with other players and consider the benefit of playing fairly in a balanced game.

But that requires more than presenting the balanced alternative, a compromise between an extreme position and a reasonable one is still likely to be unreasonable.

So, consider the purely hypothetical alternative...
D&D, in a fantasy setting, there are dragons and other magical monsters (including once-mortals who have crossed a line, like a lich or a warlock who has surrendered soul & free will to become a magic-wielding tool of some devil/fey/GOO/whatever), there are gods and other supernatural powers above mortals, and there are magical items placed in the world by such beings to tempt, bedevil, aid, or just mess with mortals. All PCs are mere mortals. Martial characters, much as they are or were in some preferred edition. Casters, OTOH, like 1e magic-users, must devote themselves to the study of the arcane/divine, from early childhood into middle age to even have a chance of gaining magical powers, lifetimes of study, conteplation, and/or prayer, with no time or effort spared to become proficient with mundane armor, weapons, or tools (caligraphy or something like that, sure), nor physical or social skills of any kind, in return, the learn the magical secrets available to mortals - knowledge of magic & suprenatural beings, including rituals that offer some protection from them or invoke them for aid (rarely answered) or bargaining (tho mortals have little to offer but their souls or servitude, which means no longer a PC), and how to use appropriate magic items. When such aspirants become frustrated with their lack of progress, they may well go out adventuring in the hopes of finding a magic item that may grant them the kinds of powers they seek. The ability to use such items also being a benefit of the class.

Imagine that's what D&D has been for, like, 48 of the last 50 years. How would fixing the caster/martial gap in that hypothetical scenario sound?

Tony Vargas said:

So, consider the purely hypothetical alternative...
D&D, in a fantasy setting, there are dragons and other magical monsters (including once-mortals who have crossed a line, like a lich or a warlock who has surrendered soul & free will to become a magic-wielding tool of some devil/fey/GOO/whatever), there are gods and other supernatural powers above mortals, and there are magical items placed in the world by such beings to tempt, bedevil, aid, or just mess with mortals. All PCs are mere mortals. Martial characters, much as they are or were in some preferred edition. Casters, OTOH, like 1e magic-users, must devote themselves to the study of the arcane/divine, from early childhood into middle age to even have a chance of gaining magical powers, lifetimes of study, conteplation, and/or prare, with no time or effort spared to become proficient with mundane armor, weapons, or tools (caligraphy or something like that, sure), nor physical or social skills of any kind, in return, the learn the magical secrets available to mortals - knowledge of magic & suprenatural beings, including rituals that offer some protection from them or invoke them for aid (rarely answered) or bargaining (tho mortals have little to offer but their souls or servitude, which means no longer a PC), and how to use appropriate magic items. When such aspirants become frustrated with their lack of progress, they may well go out adventuring in the hopes of finding a magic item that may grant them the kinds of powers they seek. The ability to use such items also being a benefit of the class.

Imagine that's what D&D has been for, like, 48 of the last 50 years.

Click to expand...

Here's to 50 more years of that.

Raiztt said:

This conversation goes around and around and around but it's completely settled:

Different people have different base expectations/assumptions about their game world and what is possible. Done. Never the twain shall meet.

Click to expand...

But there actually is super simple solution for this, and I've stated it many times: let high level martials to do mythic stuff, and if you don't want that in your game, just cap the game where you feel the power level is for your liking.

Trust me, I've argued this from the other angle too. There are people who want to boost the power of level one characters, and to those I tell: no, just start at the higher level if you want to start as more powerful.

TwoSix said:

So, to fit your preferences, what's the most parsimonious solution to fix the current ruleset's contradictions?

Click to expand...

A single sentence in the PH that explains the idea that reaching high levels means moving into the supernatural.

Cadence said:

Are Hawkeye and Blackwidow and Kingpin and Okoye mundane in Marvel Comics? (As in, no cybernetics, no mutant powers, no magic, no divinity, no alien blood?) They're usually treated as such by the other heroes in those universes.

Click to expand...

Truly mundane superhero stories work because writing teams have complete narrative control to make it work. It's the Batman effect. Batman works because he was written to work. Okoye, Black Widow, and Hawkeye have advanced technology to support their combat skills. That correlates to magic items in D&D. Captain America is enhanced to have super high stats across the board, and somehow his shield always does what he wants. New Captain America isn't enhanced and works because the writers say it works. The characters can be written really well and be noble and have great character development, but they have plot armor to get them through the day.

This can be weird to some when implemented in games. Especially when some of the best ways to mirror those abilities as they appear in comics or shows is a shared storytelling narrative mechanic that just lets the player use an expendable narrative resource to say "I do this cool thing and it works" or "For me, these monsters count as minions so no matter how tough others think they are, my one strike/arrow kills them." Some people don't like that, especially if they prefer non-minion rules where the monsters have more HP than a single strike can defeat.

Ideas to help mundane heroes?

• Relying more on minion rules, and giving mundane characters more AoE/multiattack options can help level the playing field. (If a caster uses an AoE on minions, that is a lot of overkill damage).
• Any ability that enables auto-successes or "take 10" effects help mundane folk be more reliable.
• Introducing more player-narrative control rules can help. Lucky and Heroic Advantage are a big obvious ones.

Since we apparently need a reminder, here's the first section of the OP...

overgeeked said:

Note this is a plus thread.

If your response to the thread title is any variation of "nothing" or "there is no problem" or "I haven't experienced this problem" or "I like that this is a problem," then this thread isn't for you. Please keep that comment to yourself and move on.

The premise of the thread is: in D&D 5E there is a caster / non-caster gap and casters dominate non-casters.

If you want to argue against the premise of the thread, then this thread isn't for you. Please keep those comments to yourself and move on.

Click to expand...

This is not a thread to debate whether this disparity exists or to argue for the continuation of that disparity. That's what the whole [+] thing is for. There are other threads to have that argument. They don't belong in this thread.

Micah Sweet said:

A single sentence in the PH that explains the idea that reaching high levels means moving into the supernatural.

Click to expand...

Yeah, they should just flat out say it. Would solve a lot of debates and would also help people to decide where to cap their campaigns if they don't want that.

Crimson Longinus said:

But a high level martial should be able to. Those things are no more fantastic than dragon-fighting. And if they can do those things, it actually makes it far more plausible that they could fight the dragon too.

Click to expand...

That may be true, but it doesn't work that way in WotC D&D, and quite frankly it's not gonna.

CreamCloud0 said:

given that martials already have issues with HP sustainability when they're the ones getting hit in melee range having the additional drain of that limited resource required to perform basic combat maneuvres is really going to be a kick in the teeth to them, i mean, if you want to have spellcasting deal damage to the mages when they cast too that'd probably be a fair compromise.

Click to expand...

This is what I did. Spells level 3+ and fighter maneuvers both cost HD. Martial classes tend to have more ways to recover HD (reflecting that they get hit more often).