Thus the quotes around wrong. It's not wrong to play what you want, but if your character under-contributes because it is mechanically inferior, it's bad for the whole party, and even for the campaign making it harder on the DM. It's not wrong, but because the game is imbalanced, it's 'punished.' (There are those quotes again: as in, it has negative consequences. Not as in it's meant to correct an unacceptable behavior.)I don't believe there is a right and wrong side of balance. There is a strong and weak, but what is right is what you as the player want to play.
There can certainly be instances where a player wants an inferior or under-contributing character, but a balanced game would allow that to be done advisedly, and without dictating that only certain general concepts could be that way D&D-like games already have level as well as class, so, even in the nearly unprecedented case of balanced classes, a player intentionally wishing for an inferior character in a group and with a DM both willing to work with that, could simply play a lower level PC than everyone else.Being weak is not the same as being a trap, nor is it the same as being wrong. I am playing a Monk right now, I was not trapped into doing that and I am not wrong for doing that.
That is increasing imbalance. What you are saying, and you're not wrong, is that sub-classes are imbalanced within each class.If you consider the best subclasses of each class (probably Rune Knight or Eldritch Knight on a Fighter), the amount of imbalance goes down tremendously becuase that is a big buff for classes like Fighters and Clerics, but a smaller Buff for other classes. Further using an optimal sub-class for some classes like Cleric (Twilight) or Monk (Mercy) completely changes the dynamics of the class Balance.
Each choice the game presents must be balanced with it's alternatives. Races should be balanced with other races, classes with other classes, sub-classes with other sub-classes w/in the same class.So when we are doing this balancing act are we assuming optimal races too?
Imbalance tends to make imbalance worse. Class, especially as you level, is by far the most significant choice you make for your character. Classes are imbalanced. Sol, yes, an inferior class may well benefit 'more' from choice of race or feet or background - in a relative sense, since it has less going for it, any improvement is bigger proportionally.This is important because the best races are a bigger boost for martials than they generally are for casters.
Perfect balance is impossible. Less terrible balance is the only plausible goal without re-writing 5e from the ground up.So to achieve this perfect balance
One mistake classic D&D made was trying to balance classes across all levels.What levels should we strive for balance at?
Balance is all about choice. Improving balance means more real choices.You can't do that as long as choice is at play.
It is a bizarre feature of 5e that no class doesn't cast spells, yes.This argument that fighters are restricted to being mundane holds no water at all in modern RAW 5E considering all the supernatural options available to fighters.
That's like half of D&D's history right there. It took the 25 years and the failure of TSR to take a small, obvious, step, to simplify the game and make it easier for designers to balance and DMs to use.It just strikes me as strange that two characters of the same level can have wildly different effectiveness and power. Back in the TSR days, this made a little more sense since the xp tables (kind of) reflected that.
But then WotC is like, no that's silly, everyone can level up at the same time. And then they failed to make sure that two characters of the same level with different classes were roughly equal.
Trying to balance combat & out of combat options is a fools errand, since a campaign can go virtually all combat without half trying, or virtually no combat (tho they'll be off in the weeds as far as rules support goes). One thing that makes spells so profoundly imbalanced is the versatility to use slots for either combat or non-combat on a moment by moment basis - it's also what puts prepped casters ahead of known casters.But I suppose I can't be too hard on them, because what metric do you use? If someone gives up a little combat power for more out of combat utility or vice versa, what's the exchange rate? Is Expertise in two skills equal to Second Wind? Or a bonus ASI?
I don’t think that should be embraced. I think the game should be balanced enough for the more popular methods of play without that. As you move away from the more popular play styles it’s okay that the game balances differently or even becomes unbalanced. That’s fun and interesting IMO.Silo'ing combat & non-combat resources is a workable way around that which D&D has never fully embraced.
It's OK for, like, very combat-heavy games, sure.I don’t think that should be embraced. I think the game should be balanced enough for the more popular methods of play without that.
I don't think that's symmetry, at all. Silo'ing choices & resources by, say 'Pillar' in D&D, just means that a combat resource like, say hp, can't be routinely spent in, say, a negotiation. Not exactly a stretch. It could be accomplished with spells, by making non-combat spells ritual-only, for instance, making slots a combat-only resource. That's less symmetry. By the same token, the nature of a class's abilities w/in a pillar could be very different from another class's, so long as they balanced reasonably well.The kind of symmetry you are striving for in order to balance absolutely sucks the fun out of the game for a lot of people.
symmetry taken too far can get in the way of choices being meaningful.(I should share a definition of balance that I encountered that I've found helpful
A game is better balanced the more choices it presents to the player that are both meaningful and viable.)
Yes. It's foundational to game design, really. Balanced games are better than imbalanced ones.But this idea that better balance should be a goal? That it would make the game better somehow?
Yes. It's foundational to game design, really. Balanced games are better than imbalanced ones.
They're not always a better experience for every player at the table, tho. Balance is a form of compromise, it allows all players a better shot at getting just the character and play experience they're looking for, without blocking that for anyone else in the same campaign....
I agree.We're just never going to agree.
Yes. It's foundational to game design, really. Balanced games are better than imbalanced ones.
Balance is a form of compromise, it allows all players a better shot at getting just the character and play experience they're looking for, without blocking that for anyone else in the same campaign....