D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[James Gasik]

Well that question kind of springs up into whether or not any sort of status effect regardless of its source is worthwhile. If we suppose grappling or what have you aren't worth it, then that directly implies the only reason spells that provide the same effect have any value is because they're buttons instead of rolls.

So that in turn just starts in on combat in general being too shallow and giving fighters buttons isn't going to really change that.

Personally, I only use disabling spells if they hit multiple targets. Sure, a well timed Hold Person could implode a major encounter, but I'm notoriously stingy with my spell slots, and throwing out a save or nothing against one target typically ends up with me down a slot with nothing to show for it. At least with an AoE, someone should fail, so I feel better about it.

I can honestly say I've never grappled or shoved anyone in 5e; but even when I played a Fighter, I was a Battlemaster, so I had better options to use. That isn't to say these options are bad or can't be effective, I've just never been in a situation where I felt that was the right option at the moment.

 

[Minigiant]

Why not? Why can a high enough level of skill not supersede the material? Like, if you are using a sword to cut something, and you have vibrations hitting back through your hands, you aren't actually cutting well, because done properly there is no feedback.

You are setting a limit like it is necessary, but I don't think it really is.

You're missing the specifics of the maneuver

To absorb a 7th level or above spell in a weapon and reflect it back out onto the caster, the weapon has to be able to withstand absorbing the magic. This requires a specially crafted or magic weapon.

To cut through a 7th level or above spell and ignore it's effect, the weapon can be anything. The warrior is doing everything.

It's the same with magic. Casters need magic items to break the limits of magic.

 

[MichaelSomething]

So the DMG needs a chapter on judging improvised Fighter actions?

 

[Stalker0]

i had hoped this thread might've managed to go on a little longer on it's original premise before devolving into the usual martial vs caster nonsense

Yes me too My OP has failed!

 

[Vaalingrade]

You're missing the specifics of the maneuver

To absorb a 7th level or above spell in a weapon and reflect it back out onto the caster, the weapon has to be able to withstand absorbing the magic. This requires a specially crafted or magic weapon.

Or one wielded by a genuine certified badass who is able to provide proof off badassdom signed by a notary.

 

[Chaosmancer]

A missile carrying napalm is more dangerous than Meteor Storm is. I would think the point already iterated, that high level magic isn't actually as special as asserted, would be clear by making such comparisons.

No it isn't.

A gun only being about 1/3 as damaging as the supposed epitome of destructive magic doesn't make the point you think it does.

"A gun"? Seriously?

An antimatter rifle is a gun the same way that a nail is a sword. I didn't compare it to Doom's BFG for no reason. We are talking about unleashing pure destructive energy that can likely disintegrate anything it touches. And THAT is only a 1/3 as powerful as the epitome of destructive magic. Something we are not even capable of creating in our modern age.

Was reality warping when Hiroshima and Nagasaki got bombed? No.

So why would the "functional equivalent" in a world with magic be warping reality?

It wouldn't, if you keep to the logic. But it would, if you're already starting from the assumption that magic is inherently reality warping no matter what, regardless of the properties of the universe its happening in.

I did allude to this earlier. My conclusion stems from me not assuming anything about what magic is or isn't and is not trying to force my arguments to fit an assumption.

Yes. It absolutely warped the reality of the world and geo-politics, reshaping what WAR meant for the next fifty years. To the point we refer to those bombings as the start of the nuclear age, and their impacts have reshaped our world.

And you are talking about two weapons that took a secret team of genius scientists, founded by one of the richest countries of all time, years to figure out. Then load onto highly advanced aircraft that cost millions of dollars, using cutting edge technology, flying them hours across hostile oceans, using fuel that is the entire point of an entire sector of the economy. It was a strike that could only be pulled off by the most advanced, largest, richest economy and government in the world. The cooridination of hundreds of thousands of man-hours and supply lines and expertise across a dozen fields.

And that is being compared to something that could be done by a single hermit in the woods. With no backing from a government, and no need of anyone but himself.

You must not be a fan of superhero literature if the realization of the amount of personal power we are talking about doesn't strike you as utterly warping to the world.

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Oh yay, condescension. My favorite. How about you answer the question instead?

Considering cloning is real, and arguably mind transferrence (and presumably copying) could be possible as well with further developments in those fields, not so much far beyond as you'd think.

Genetic cloning is "real" in that we have done it. But it still requires a normal growth rate. Meaning that if you wanted an adult body, you'd need 20 years. Oh, and since it would be in a vat and not moving, all the muscles would be horrifically atrophied. The spell does this in 120 days, regardless of size or complexity, with no harm to the body from atrophy. Additionally, you are arguing that a completely theoritical thing might be possible. A thing we cannot do, have no idea how to do, and have no functional way to even attempt. Meanwhile, again, the clone spell transmits the soul from the dead body to the new body. No loss of memories or anything else. After death. Even sci-fi clones with mind transfers can't do that reliably. And again, for less than the cost of a big wooden boat.

Yes, in a world of dungeons and dragons and magic and gods and wizardry, immortality is peanuts when you can buy resurrection materials at any corner drug store. (Ie, you assumed what I was directing that to and got it very wrong)

In a world of phones, hot chips, and lies, immortality is one of the pinnacle achievements of humanity that we're on the cusp of attaining for ourselves after merely a century and a half of concentrated developments in the fields of medicine, science, and technology.

Its all relative and it goes both ways. Whats an amazing achievement for us isn't always going to be for another universe and vice versa.

And you still seem to miss the point. Resurrection is magic too. You are trying to argue that magic isn't warping how the world works, by pointing out how magic warps how the world works. And completely ignoring that even if a fighter bought 1 million ressurection materials... they can't do anything with it. (Plus, ressurection can't bring you back if you die of old age, clone can.)

 

[Chaosmancer]

if you every round for 3 fights have your sword and board fighter say "can I knock them 5ft back and then follow and attack?" I am sure you would be called a problem in 5e. In 4e it was a normal at will (Tide of Iron).

look back at the come and get it example... how many DMs will let a player just improvises these things?

Exactly

that is a cool moment for the wizard... it didn't cost them any spells and they did something cool. BY some accounts that is the fighters job though.

Oh, it cost them spells. They don't have the hp to survive a single hit from this thing (they were hit by a life drain earlier) and they only were able to do it because they had Silvery Barbs and Shield to survive the Attacks of opportunity.

there is a saying for it... "When all you have is a hammer all problems look like a nail"
or from the old days a meme before memes "When all you have is a hammer gun all problems look like a nail just right over there"

And it really is true. It is very difficult to think of things to do that don't normally come up. I've had plenty of players say "Hey, I'm a cleric, can I like... use my holy powers to do something here?" but fighters and barbarians rarely attempt things that they can't physically imagine doing. And even then, there is this inherit idea that doing something like "I want to charge, hit the enemy with my maul to throw them back 20 ft, spin, hit the second enemy to knock them prone, then finish my move to disarm the third" all comes with a price of not dealing damage. And if you don't deal damage, as a martial, the fight can't end.

 

[Gammadoodler]

You're missing the specifics of the maneuver

To absorb a 7th level or above spell in a weapon and reflect it back out onto the caster, the weapon has to be able to withstand absorbing the magic. This requires a specially crafted or magic weapon.

To cut through a 7th level or above spell and ignore it's effect, the weapon can be anything. The warrior is doing everything.

It's the same with magic. Casters need magic items to break the limits of magic.

Why?

This is kind of the whole thing I was griping about earlier.

What core operating mechanism of every fantasy setting D&D could emulate necessitates this?

Is there divine writ? An occult tome of otherwise ineffable setting assumptions that is only internally consistent in this one respect?

Or is it something you kinda think makes sense but isn't really supported by anything?

Or is it just a game design choice that game designers have made in the past that they could make again or not make in the future?

 

[Minigiant]

Or one wielded by a genuine certified badass who is able to provide proof off badassdom signed by a notary.

The notary makes it Truemagic and the weapon magical.

 

[Vaalingrade]

The notary makes it Truemagic and the weapon magical.

Nope. Just a sword and a badass.

It's badass. The don't have to explain it.