D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Vaalingrade]

Feels like an Oberoni Fallacy to me.

‘There is no problem because you can always Rule 0 the problem.’

They could save all this time and money with the playtest just releasing a $70 index card that says 'Ask Your DM'.

 

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

Because any time I try to do something not in the rules as something my character can do, I get told to stop being a problem player.

if you every round for 3 fights have your sword and board fighter say "can I knock them 5ft back and then follow and attack?" I am sure you would be called a problem in 5e. In 4e it was a normal at will (Tide of Iron).

How many times must I be told that I can't do this or that, because it would be broken, or it isn't the rules until I finally go... okay, let's just change the rules then!

look back at the come and get it example... how many DMs will let a player just improvises these things?

Or, also, how about because it is incredibly difficult to conceive of doing things that you can't do in the moment? I just had a moment in a game, I'm playing a barbarian, we've got a wizard and a gloomstalker. My character has been pounding away at the enemy, and the wizard suddenly starts rushing into melee with it and taking opportunity attacks. They did so because they were taking out the torches, which would create a 5ft space of darkness for the Gloomstalker to turn invisible.

that is a cool moment for the wizard... it didn't cost them any spells and they did something cool. BY some accounts that is the fighters job though.

I have no abilities beyond hammering the enemy and being tough, so I've just focused on standing between my party and the enemy, because they deal more damage than me and they will die if this thing hits them. So, I didn't consider the factors that couldn't possibly effect my play, because to me they were non-factors. I don't even have the tools to quickly snuff a torch other than grinding it into the ground and hoping that puts it out.

there is a saying for it... "When all you have is a hammer all problems look like a nail"
or from the old days a meme before memes "When all you have is a hammer gun all problems look like a nail just right over there"

 

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

Gotta make + threads, or you'll always have people saying "what problem are you trying to solve? There is no problem here".

that is insane... but seems to be true

 

[James Gasik]

If they make themselves incapable of casting, sure. Even then, not as good as a fighter or Barbarian, usually.

I mean, you aren't usually casting many spells in the form of a Giant Ape. Though to be fair, when you have a 7d6+4 rock throw ability, why are you grappling?

 

[Chaosmancer]

And their ability to do something has no bearing on their ability to recognize its a consistent part of their reality.

I actually do know how to fly a plane and have done so myself, but even if I didn't, I don't need that knowledge and experience to know planes exist and aren't some supernatural thingamajig.

So how long would it take you to build a plane, fuel it, fly it into the air, and crash it into something? Is it longer than a wizard pointing saying "Boom shaka laka" and causing the same amount of devastation?

Your analogy REALLY misses the point when something that takes multiple entire economic sectors entire years to accomplish is being compared to one person's daily ability.

 

[James Gasik]

They could save all this time and money with the playtest just releasing a $70 index card that says 'Ask Your DM'.

I mean, isn't that how we got 5e in the first place? : )

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Yeah other people can make all the same points without vulgarity and acerbic ranting, so I won’t be engaging with this much.

Instead I’ll just say, read my previous posts for my replies to most of these points.

In your game, my rogue wants to walk up to a guard and hypnotize them to sleep in a round. What is the check? Since we can improv anything, copying a simple Sleep spell for one target should be pretty easy, right? It's single target, close range, so should be better than actually casting a sleep spell I trust.

 

[Vaalingrade]

if you every round for 3 fights have your sword and board fighter say "can I knock them 5ft back and then follow and attack?" I am sure you would be called a problem in 5e. In 4e it was a normal at will (Tide of Iron).

Silly Fighter, that's a Warlock class feature now. Only they get to get it at range and 10ft. (honestly the best part of the class).

'Wield sword competently' is even fixing to become a warlock-but-not-Warlock cantrip even.

 

[Pedantic]

i'm basically copying this from a while back in the 'how would you revise skills' thread but i think that every skill should have a shortlist of spells that a good enough ability check in the associated skill would let you replicate their effects, it'd almost be like rituals but more expansive, having the ability to 'cast' cartain spells nonmagically with your skill check(DC scales with spell level), jump, catapult or haste through athletics, cure wounds, lesser restoration or revivify with medicine, find familiar, animal messenger, summon beast using animal handling and so on.

i don't want the answer to be 'give the martials spells+slots' but if every fiat ability is going to be a spell then martials need to be able to tap into that, combine this with more available expertise for martials.

martials can attempt to perform compelled duel with their intimidation as many times as they like, but spellcasters burn the slot and don't need to make the initial skill check to even use it.

I don't love this as a solution necessarily (personally, I think it's a strain on the skill system to cover both "mundane action declarations" and "utility abilities for all the non-caster classes") but I have noted before that as a game, low-level utility spells are a more interesting mechanism than skill checks in nearly all cases. You have a planning/drafting element, where you try and bring the correct abilities to resolve the situation, a resource management element, where you evaluate the value of expending any given resource to deal with a problem, and a tactical element, wherein you have a specific set of effects that you have to leverage for maximum value against fixed obstacles in the setting.

Skill checks can't really provided the first two, unless we're using a radically different model of skills where you're making daily choices instead of character building decisions, and rarely allow for the latter, particularly because we don't have a game with clearly fixed objective DCs. Skill checks are nearly always reactive instead of proactive. You're telling a lie or climbing a wall because you have to, not choosing to deploy Charm Person or casting Spider Climb, because getting this person on side or climbing this wall will prevent more resource expenditure or result in a better end state later.

 

[Emberashh]

Because any time I try to do something not in the rules as something my character can do, I get told to stop being a problem player.

It isn't the games fault if you're not meshing well with your playgroup

Thats really an issue where one should be considering either shifting groups or finding a different game to play together.

If the group is wanting to play Battlefield it isn't Battlefields fault its not Fortnite.

but frankly why would I?

Because you pay attention to what everyone else is playing and, being a good team member, think of ways to help them out?

I can only go off of the examples you've given me here. You could absolutely be doing more if this how your experience is going, whether you're playing a martial or not.