D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Vaalingrade]

Can Martials do that, in 5e, now? Grab a Dragon by the throat and force it to expel its breathweapon?

Can't even suplex them through a layer of the Abyss.

Weaklings.

 

[Incenjucar]

11th century Anglo-Saxon epic. And Beowulf does nothing a high level fighter couldn't do.

Swim in chainmail while killing sea serpents? Check (though this was mostly bragging). Fight a powerful ogre-type monster with his bare hands? Check. Defeat said creature's mother with a magical sword? Check. Lead an army against invading marauders? Check. Late in life, defeat a dragon, with the aid of a companion, though dying in the process? Check.

Tearing a limb off something, uncheck
Swimming and fighting monsters for seven days uncheck

 

[Yaarel]

let players/dms sort out the flavor thar makes them happy.

I doubt "figure it out yourself" would satisfy the Martial fans who want nonmagic flavor.

 

[Gammadoodler]

I doubt "figure it out yourself" would satisfy the Martial fans who want nonmagic flavor.

Why? Has there been a rampant undercurrent of hostility toward all the minimally justified abilities so far?

 

[Incenjucar]

Can Martials do that, in 5e, now? Grab a Dragon by the throat and force it to expel its breathweapon?

If Mother says you May.

 

[Incenjucar]

I think ultimately I have this question: If it did not replace the standard fighter, would you who are fans of the standard fighter object to a numerically-balanced mythic fighter being added to the game?

 

[Incenjucar]

<double post>

 

[Yaarel]

I suspect letting Martials perform rituals solves most of the problems.

The rituals are, almost by definition, noncombat effects. This allows Martials to do more things outside of combat.

Rituals include game changers. Like:

Detect Magic
Beast Sense
Divination
Tiny Hut
Silence
Waterbreathing
Unseen Servant

As a separate design space, the number of rituals (which is kinda few actually) can increase. Thinking about things like religious rituals, can also diversify the list of rituals that Martials can come across.

 

[James Gasik]

And now we're playing as the Incredible Hulk. Which is fine. In a superhero game. It doesn't feel like fantasy to me. Aragorn didn't need to crush diamonds. Brienne of Tarth doesn't leap mountains. To me those suggestions just seem like another genre.

Sure but that ignores the fact that D&D is higher fantasy than Aragorn or Brienne's stories; if they were in a D&D game, they wouldn't be 15th level or higher, because they don't really face enemies of that magnitude with the regularity D&D characters do.

There's this bit in the live action Fellowship of the Ring movie where they are trying to get through the mountains and there are shown to be giants of stone hindering the party's progress; naturally, the Fellowship hightails it out of there. But in a D&D game, that would be 1/6th of their daily encounters at a certain level, and they would be expected to fight them!

The problem D&D has it that it doesn't stay in one lane. The type of fantasy it emulates changes the longer it is played. At low levels, a group of Orcs can be a tough fight. At mid-levels, now you're fighting Giants. At higher levels, Dragons. Eventually you're intended to leave the mortal realm and throw down with Demon Princes on their home turf.

And while spellcasters keep getting newer and better options to match this evolving play pattern, the non-casters really don't. I mean, let's look at AD&D, where this play pattern is really enshrined with classic modules (Against the Giants leading into the Underdark, that leading to a fight with Lolth. Or Temple of Elemental Evil, which culminates in a battle against the Demon Princess of Fungi, Zuggtmoy).

At 9th level, Fighters get a small military force. Rangers and Paladins get some spells. Level 10 Thieves get the ability to use magic scrolls. By 13th level, all that a warrior character has to look forward to from more levels is a +1 to hit and 3 hit points, and a potential bonus to saving throws.

Meanwhile, Clerics can reverse the tide of death and Wizards have spells to do just about any darned thing you can imagine.

The game doesn't account for this, because it's assumed players will be festooned in magic items, and maybe even get their grubby paws on an artifact for tough adventures.

Some people seem to want their warriors and rogues to remain at low to mid-tier and not become superhuman, but paradoxically, the game throws them against things only a superhuman could reasonably fight. And you'll get things like "well, Conan killed Gods without weird special fightan' magic or mystical gear, so this is fine"...and if the game was actually based around that kind of play, that'd be great, but D&D really isn't.

I wish I could find it, but one issue of Dragon magazine had an article with a high level Fighter preparing to deal with a threat to his kingdom. It talks about how he puts on his enchanted armor, grabs his magic sword, tightens his belt of strength. Then after the fight, he limps back to his castle and looks in his mirror of healthful reflection, mulling about how he could have done that better. For me, this was a snapshot of what high level warriors were intended to be like; guys who have acquired powerful magical tools to help them overcome their mortal limits to deal with extraordinary threats.

Can D&D be used to run a grittier game where warriors and rogues don't have fantastical abilities? Sure, but then you need to strip some power away from the spellcasters (and I know, many do in their houserules). Because the base game these days really makes it feel like a high level adventuring party is like the Avengers. You have alchemically boosted super soldiers, a guy who turns into a giant, a literal God, a flying Wizard in full plate...and some dude who shoots arrows good.

 

[Minigiant]

It's a bit odd when you want martials to be accomplished doing martial things if you're requiring them to use magic weapons and devices to keep up with mages. Especially if that magic sword is something that the mages could use to ignore their lack of proficiency with swords. But I do think there's something here. If Artificers are inventors of magic weapons and items, those items could be mass-produced as technology to the martials and mages to use and enhance their abilities. That's a very Eberron / Ravnica / Kaladesh / Dominaria / Kamigawa / Capenna / Phyrexia way of thinking about magic items, of course.

It's less unlocking and more the difference between a sword maker and sword user.

The martials are the only ones skilled in swordsmanship to wield magic swords. The "Special Technique" is a thousands year old trope.

A wizard can't slash a hole into the Feywild. A fighter can.
"You can't cut right into reality!"
It's a magic sword.

I mean D&D fighters take fireballs and dodge them without moving. Wouldn't a logical explanation be them batting away half the fighter with their magic axe?

I'll never forget the episode of Slayers where Gourry is mind controlled and uses the Sword of Light vs his magic user friends to parry and reflect all their spells back at them and AOE them into full panic mode. So they had to me saved by another high level fighter who could enter melee with him..

Because Gourry is a high level fighter and he has a magic sword. And a pea size brain.