D&D 5E Encounter Building: Revised XP Threshold by Character Level Table

l0lzero

First Post
Here's my two cents:

The guidelines in the DMG assume a base game experience; no multi-classing, no feats, no flanking, rock stock basic rules no variants. Given that assumption, I don't think the DMG guidelines are too far off, math-wise, given the assumption of basically stock PCs whose individual abilities are thematically and mechanically linked. Once you start adding in feats, multi-classing, etc., versatility of individual PCs starts to make a significant impact on how challenging an encounter will be. The rogue is only going to get one strong attack in a round with, the cleric won't be dropping fireballs, the wizard won't be busting out cure spells, the fighter will be taking most of the damage. In such a case, the math for the encounter guidelines hold up; the fighter is going to go down significantly quicker with each additional creature attacking it, the cleric will have to heal more often, reducing their time spent attacking and dealing damage, the wizard will have to use more controller effects, rogue can't just stand up in melee opposite the tank without getting attacked as well.

However, I don't think many of us play stock games. We play with feats, multi-classing, variant and other homebrew rules and rulings which fundamentally change the math of the system. Consider a feat like healer; 1d6+4+targetlevel HP recovery 1/rest with an infinite stabilize to 1 option. That's a significant increase in available healing, and an absurd increase to a party's ability to keep PCs up and in the fight. A party of 4th level PCs, assuming two rests a day, and a 20 gp investment in healing kits (just have each PC buy a healing kit and keep it on their belt, the guy with the healer feat uses each PC's kit to determine uses), is going to see 3 uses of healer healing per day, for 3d6 (9) + 12 +12, or 33 additional healing a day, and for a party of 4th level characters, that's pretty close to max HP for around 3 of the PCs, and doesn't consider any stabilize to 1 uses. That's better than a 3rd level healing spell from a life cleric with an 18 wisdom (and the party doesn't even have 3rd level spells yet, 3d8+4+2+3, or 12+9 or 21 on average, it's not until 5th level spells with a 20 wisdom that it even starts to catch up to healer with 5d8+5+2+5 for 32, since healer actually increases by 9 over the course of the day at that point assuming 7th level party to have access to 5th level magic). Another example being alert, adding +5 to initiative and can't be surprised, that's effectively advantage on initiative, which enables a lot of characters to deal extra damage which changes the dynamics of a fight, eating through monster resources faster. Healer makes monsters less effective, Alert makes PCs more effective, and a lot of feats work along similar lines. Heck, consider skulker, no disadvantage in dim-light means a character with darkvision and skulker has advantage against every other character, even if they have darkvision, in the darkness. Got an underdark campaign? That character is vastly more effective now with a small investment cost.

Now, a multi-class character isn't going to be so much more powerful than a normal character as to burn through monsters faster, but the added versatility diminishes the effectiveness of various options you may wish to choose. If the fighter takes a few levels of the UA Revised Ranger, now they're basically immune to difficult terrain, letting them get to and start dealing damage sooner than a straight fighter. A sorcerer who is a favored soul origin is potentially going to have access to healing and buff spells that create powerful synergy that makes the party as a whole more efficient; the cleric is out of spells? Let me just eat a slot with a bonus action for the sorcery points and then twin this healing spell so that I can heal the tank and myself, letting us keep fighting while the cleric switches to offensive cantrips and helps kill the monsters quicker. There are plenty of examples where a MCd character has interesting options that allow for solid efficiency increases. Heck, a sorc/bard is going to have no less than 6 cantrips with 1/1 level investment. That's a LOT of cantrips covering a LOT of situations. Those kinds of options reduce the difficulty of various challenges.

My point with this blurb is that if you ARE going to retool the encounter building tables, I suggest that you do create different sets which create different guidelines depending on what options you are using in your game. A rock stock game, I think, could be fun and challenging using the encounter building tools in the DMG, but a game with feats, MCs, splat options (UA stuff I'm looking at you), are going to find these encounters too simple. So I think what you should focus on, rather than trying to create a new base guideline, is to generate a guideline based on the assumption that you're allowing feats and MC. A game that allows GWM is going to find melee encounters easier to handle than a group that doesn't. A group that allows MC is going to handle diversified challenges easier (unless the group focuses on a particular aspect, e.g. melee combat optimization, ranged combat optimization, social optimization, exploration optimization, etc.). As such, your efforts, I feel, would be best focused towards a table for DMs who allow these options, with some text guidelines explaining how to build more challenging encounters without resorting to throwing absurd CR creatures at your party. For these tables, I don't think any multipliers should be used, at all. I think the tables should be derived by determining easy, medium, hard, deadly for an individual character, and then total encounter budget is the sum of individual budgets for each party member.

My reasoning for removing the multipliers is that they are too wary of the action economy of lots of monsters; the assumption is that the monsters will have so many extra actions that you'll overwhelm the PCs, where I don't think that is the case in games that employ options like feats and MC. The monsters were created and tuned under the assumption that they would be used against stock PCs, and in that case, adding more monsters is going to make it harder because they aren't going to be as diversified, and you aren't going to see as powerful of novas from your PCs (not that they can't, it just isn't going to be as strong, a raging barb rocking a greataxe is going to be dealing 20 damage less without feats than a barb in a game that does allow feats, since it would be stupid not to take GWM in such a game with such a character). In a game with feats and MCs, extra actions from team monster basically means very little.

I think the others are right when they suggest the bulk of the separation occurring around level 8, that's when feats and MC really start to affect the game in a significant fashion, but even at 3rd level, my UA RRanger/Sorc was very effective in a variety of combat situations (can melee, range, and lots of skills), so I would suggest starting the separation at a lower level, but with diminished potency, which increases moreso at level 8 and beyond. I think low levels are just as much of a problem as higher levels, the numbers are just so much lower all around that dice play a significant role in adjudication of actions that even a single lucky roll can drastically influence the outcome of an encounter.

I think also that you should include verbiage strongly cautioning against using a single enemy, especially once the party hits level 5 and start getting multi-attack (extra attack, extra cantrip dice, EB rays, etc.) since the PCs will have so many more actions. Yes, this eats up budget for lower CR monsters, but it would rebalance the action economy, letting higher CR monsters actually feel like greater threats. I mean, you're making this for non-noob DMs, so they should know this, but we all know what happens when you assume. A lot of combat balance issues are solved by not using single creature encounters.

I guess, really, I should reword my proposal and walk back something I said earlier; there should be a multiplier, and it applies if you absolutely insist upon using a single monster, and it doesn't change the effective encounter XP, but actually increases the XP budget. Say, a 1.5x increase in budget if you are using only a single creature for the encounter.

I find that when I run a single monster, it tends to go down rather quickly unless I have a way to reasonably fiat immunity from being targeted. For instance, a succubus can just kind of bounce from the material plane and pop back in when it wants, kind of useful for letting it last more than a round or two. Whereas if I take a single monster I wanted to use as a threat, and then throw in a bunch of lower CR minions, it tends to fare much better because a good chunk of the party can't just sit there with enemies on it and still effectively deal damage and maintain a state of consciousness without burning up resources or getting help from the other players who would otherwise be burning down the big bad.

I, personally, wouldn't exclude the low CR monsters from the total encounter budget, to be perfectly honest, because once you divide the XP up among the party, they really amount to trivial amounts anyway, so they're barely eating through your budget in the first place, and, with a correctly tuned for options table, you'll have the extra budget in the first place.

Further, sort of off but still on-topic note: CR is whack when you take into account the optional rules that most groups are playing with. Unless we can come up with a new CR table for the monsters that is formed under the assumption that PCs will have access to feats and MC, I think your table is going to run into problems if it is the result of formulaic manipulation. I think if you want this to work in the long run, you'd need to look at the classes and builds, and see at what levels the power tends to jump up for PCs, and adjust the table to allow for greater budget at those levels. WIth casters, it's basically a solid power bump ever odd level, but with your melee it's more like a significant bump every tier, and your utility classes tend to have a solid power creep across all levels. As such, I think I would make my adjustments slightly more pronounced on the odd levels, with a more powerful adjustment every 4th or 5th level, in addition to an overall upwards adjustment.

I think you could mute the over-all effect of the upwards adjustment by changing the way the difficulty categories are handled; assume the base XP budget is an "easy" encounter, or rather, a baseline. Not sure on exact numbers, so my example isn't really based on anything, but, if you have a budget of 1500 for easy, then medium would be 1.5x that budget at 2250, hard would be 3x for 4500, deadly would be a 5x budget for 7500. Again, those are numbers I pulled from betwixt my cheeks, so the specific numbers aren't important, but I think they illustrate basically what I'm trying to say, though I feel that the multipliers are probably close to what they would end up at. If this 1500 base budget were for a party of 5 3rd level characters, a deadly encounter for them would be a CR 9 and ~12-13 CR 1 creatures, which to me, sounds fairly deadly, but not impossible, and you'll probably have a character get dropped to 0, if not outright killed. It could also be ~4 CR 5 creatures, ~11 CR 3 creatures, so on and so forth. I don't use the base encounter table regularly, so I don't know how the numbers I made up compare to the base table, I saw that the encounters I built tend to wind up too easy thanks to my reliance on hordes of low CR monsters to prop-up the tougher enemies, which I find tends to work well to eat up PC resources and keep encounters interesting.

If'n I were to undertake this operation, I think I'd quit, so I just want to say grats on keeping up the effort, and good work so far. I'm glad to see how open to suggestion you are, and I hope I didn't waste your time with my semi-coherent rambling.
 

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dave2008

Legend
Here's my two cents:

The guidelines in the DMG assume a base game experience; no multi-classing, no feats, no flanking, rock stock basic rules no variants. Given that assumption, I don't think the DMG guidelines are too far off, math-wise, given the assumption of basically stock PCs whose individual abilities are thematically and mechanically linked. Once you start adding in feats, multi-classing, etc., versatility of individual PCs starts to make a significant impact on how challenging an encounter will be. The rogue is only going to get one strong attack in a round with, the cleric won't be dropping fireballs, the wizard won't be busting out cure spells, the fighter will be taking most of the damage. In such a case, the math for the encounter guidelines hold up; the fighter is going to go down significantly quicker with each additional creature attacking it, the cleric will have to heal more often, reducing their time spent attacking and dealing damage, the wizard will have to use more controller effects, rogue can't just stand up in melee opposite the tank without getting attacked as well.

However, I don't think many of us play stock games. We play with feats, multi-classing, variant and other homebrew rules and rulings which fundamentally change the math of the system. Consider a feat like healer; 1d6+4+targetlevel HP recovery 1/rest with an infinite stabilize to 1 option. That's a significant increase in available healing, and an absurd increase to a party's ability to keep PCs up and in the fight. A party of 4th level PCs, assuming two rests a day, and a 20 gp investment in healing kits (just have each PC buy a healing kit and keep it on their belt, the guy with the healer feat uses each PC's kit to determine uses), is going to see 3 uses of healer healing per day, for 3d6 (9) + 12 +12, or 33 additional healing a day, and for a party of 4th level characters, that's pretty close to max HP for around 3 of the PCs, and doesn't consider any stabilize to 1 uses. That's better than a 3rd level healing spell from a life cleric with an 18 wisdom (and the party doesn't even have 3rd level spells yet, 3d8+4+2+3, or 12+9 or 21 on average, it's not until 5th level spells with a 20 wisdom that it even starts to catch up to healer with 5d8+5+2+5 for 32, since healer actually increases by 9 over the course of the day at that point assuming 7th level party to have access to 5th level magic). Another example being alert, adding +5 to initiative and can't be surprised, that's effectively advantage on initiative, which enables a lot of characters to deal extra damage which changes the dynamics of a fight, eating through monster resources faster. Healer makes monsters less effective, Alert makes PCs more effective, and a lot of feats work along similar lines. Heck, consider skulker, no disadvantage in dim-light means a character with darkvision and skulker has advantage against every other character, even if they have darkvision, in the darkness. Got an underdark campaign? That character is vastly more effective now with a small investment cost.

Now, a multi-class character isn't going to be so much more powerful than a normal character as to burn through monsters faster, but the added versatility diminishes the effectiveness of various options you may wish to choose. If the fighter takes a few levels of the UA Revised Ranger, now they're basically immune to difficult terrain, letting them get to and start dealing damage sooner than a straight fighter. A sorcerer who is a favored soul origin is potentially going to have access to healing and buff spells that create powerful synergy that makes the party as a whole more efficient; the cleric is out of spells? Let me just eat a slot with a bonus action for the sorcery points and then twin this healing spell so that I can heal the tank and myself, letting us keep fighting while the cleric switches to offensive cantrips and helps kill the monsters quicker. There are plenty of examples where a MCd character has interesting options that allow for solid efficiency increases. Heck, a sorc/bard is going to have no less than 6 cantrips with 1/1 level investment. That's a LOT of cantrips covering a LOT of situations. Those kinds of options reduce the difficulty of various challenges.

My point with this blurb is that if you ARE going to retool the encounter building tables, I suggest that you do create different sets which create different guidelines depending on what options you are using in your game. A rock stock game, I think, could be fun and challenging using the encounter building tools in the DMG, but a game with feats, MCs, splat options (UA stuff I'm looking at you), are going to find these encounters too simple. So I think what you should focus on, rather than trying to create a new base guideline, is to generate a guideline based on the assumption that you're allowing feats and MC. A game that allows GWM is going to find melee encounters easier to handle than a group that doesn't. A group that allows MC is going to handle diversified challenges easier (unless the group focuses on a particular aspect, e.g. melee combat optimization, ranged combat optimization, social optimization, exploration optimization, etc.). As such, your efforts, I feel, would be best focused towards a table for DMs who allow these options, with some text guidelines explaining how to build more challenging encounters without resorting to throwing absurd CR creatures at your party. For these tables, I don't think any multipliers should be used, at all. I think the tables should be derived by determining easy, medium, hard, deadly for an individual character, and then total encounter budget is the sum of individual budgets for each party member.

My reasoning for removing the multipliers is that they are too wary of the action economy of lots of monsters; the assumption is that the monsters will have so many extra actions that you'll overwhelm the PCs, where I don't think that is the case in games that employ options like feats and MC. The monsters were created and tuned under the assumption that they would be used against stock PCs, and in that case, adding more monsters is going to make it harder because they aren't going to be as diversified, and you aren't going to see as powerful of novas from your PCs (not that they can't, it just isn't going to be as strong, a raging barb rocking a greataxe is going to be dealing 20 damage less without feats than a barb in a game that does allow feats, since it would be stupid not to take GWM in such a game with such a character). In a game with feats and MCs, extra actions from team monster basically means very little.

I think the others are right when they suggest the bulk of the separation occurring around level 8, that's when feats and MC really start to affect the game in a significant fashion, but even at 3rd level, my UA RRanger/Sorc was very effective in a variety of combat situations (can melee, range, and lots of skills), so I would suggest starting the separation at a lower level, but with diminished potency, which increases moreso at level 8 and beyond. I think low levels are just as much of a problem as higher levels, the numbers are just so much lower all around that dice play a significant role in adjudication of actions that even a single lucky roll can drastically influence the outcome of an encounter.

I think also that you should include verbiage strongly cautioning against using a single enemy, especially once the party hits level 5 and start getting multi-attack (extra attack, extra cantrip dice, EB rays, etc.) since the PCs will have so many more actions. Yes, this eats up budget for lower CR monsters, but it would rebalance the action economy, letting higher CR monsters actually feel like greater threats. I mean, you're making this for non-noob DMs, so they should know this, but we all know what happens when you assume. A lot of combat balance issues are solved by not using single creature encounters.

I guess, really, I should reword my proposal and walk back something I said earlier; there should be a multiplier, and it applies if you absolutely insist upon using a single monster, and it doesn't change the effective encounter XP, but actually increases the XP budget. Say, a 1.5x increase in budget if you are using only a single creature for the encounter.

I find that when I run a single monster, it tends to go down rather quickly unless I have a way to reasonably fiat immunity from being targeted. For instance, a succubus can just kind of bounce from the material plane and pop back in when it wants, kind of useful for letting it last more than a round or two. Whereas if I take a single monster I wanted to use as a threat, and then throw in a bunch of lower CR minions, it tends to fare much better because a good chunk of the party can't just sit there with enemies on it and still effectively deal damage and maintain a state of consciousness without burning up resources or getting help from the other players who would otherwise be burning down the big bad.

I, personally, wouldn't exclude the low CR monsters from the total encounter budget, to be perfectly honest, because once you divide the XP up among the party, they really amount to trivial amounts anyway, so they're barely eating through your budget in the first place, and, with a correctly tuned for options table, you'll have the extra budget in the first place.

Further, sort of off but still on-topic note: CR is whack when you take into account the optional rules that most groups are playing with. Unless we can come up with a new CR table for the monsters that is formed under the assumption that PCs will have access to feats and MC, I think your table is going to run into problems if it is the result of formulaic manipulation. I think if you want this to work in the long run, you'd need to look at the classes and builds, and see at what levels the power tends to jump up for PCs, and adjust the table to allow for greater budget at those levels. WIth casters, it's basically a solid power bump ever odd level, but with your melee it's more like a significant bump every tier, and your utility classes tend to have a solid power creep across all levels. As such, I think I would make my adjustments slightly more pronounced on the odd levels, with a more powerful adjustment every 4th or 5th level, in addition to an overall upwards adjustment.

I think you could mute the over-all effect of the upwards adjustment by changing the way the difficulty categories are handled; assume the base XP budget is an "easy" encounter, or rather, a baseline. Not sure on exact numbers, so my example isn't really based on anything, but, if you have a budget of 1500 for easy, then medium would be 1.5x that budget at 2250, hard would be 3x for 4500, deadly would be a 5x budget for 7500. Again, those are numbers I pulled from betwixt my cheeks, so the specific numbers aren't important, but I think they illustrate basically what I'm trying to say, though I feel that the multipliers are probably close to what they would end up at. If this 1500 base budget were for a party of 5 3rd level characters, a deadly encounter for them would be a CR 9 and ~12-13 CR 1 creatures, which to me, sounds fairly deadly, but not impossible, and you'll probably have a character get dropped to 0, if not outright killed. It could also be ~4 CR 5 creatures, ~11 CR 3 creatures, so on and so forth. I don't use the base encounter table regularly, so I don't know how the numbers I made up compare to the base table, I saw that the encounters I built tend to wind up too easy thanks to my reliance on hordes of low CR monsters to prop-up the tougher enemies, which I find tends to work well to eat up PC resources and keep encounters interesting.

If'n I were to undertake this operation, I think I'd quit, so I just want to say grats on keeping up the effort, and good work so far. I'm glad to see how open to suggestion you are, and I hope I didn't waste your time with my semi-coherent rambling.

That's like at least 25 cents worth! I can't digest this now - but thank you for your reply.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
Sorry for beating on the horse, but

Encounter design:2) The encounter build tables list adjectives to describe how an encounter should feel. In many cases my players have reported they do not feel that adjective is accurate for the encounter. Therefore the DMG table provides inaccurate information.
This was very eloquently put.

My suggestion, of course, would be to replace those adjectives so as to not create those expectations. But I don't want to restart the topic; I just needed to share the best way to say it.
 

l0lzero

First Post
That is probably the best way to describe the problem with the table, but can you think of other words that would convey the intent that the encounter is more difficult that doesn't use subjective language? Like maybe "Weak, Standard, Tougher, Toughest"? With the implication being that standard is a description of the difficulty in terms of the expected performance of players and the other categories are derived from the "standard" difficulty level. Is there a way to create difficulty categories that aren't named subjectively?

For instance, we both sit down to play Tekken, and we put it on Ultra Hard difficulty, I'm terrible at it, but you're good at the game, so for me, Ultra Hard is a chance for the CPU to show me all the cool moves its character can do, and for you, it's CPU beat down time. I think difficulty itself is subjective, and so I think we'll find it difficult to establish more objective language, and tables that are both fair and accurate.
 

MostlyDm

Explorer
Maybe I missed something, but what does the daily XP budget have to do with leveling up? I typical use milestone leveling and I didn't realize there was a relationship.

There isn't. Because the XP budget is based on XP calculations for Hard/Deadly/etc, and those calculations include phantom XP multipliers that do not actually get award to the PCs, there is no significant relationship between XP budget and rate of leveling.

Face the "correct" budget exclusively in solo monsters, level faster. Face it in hordes of low CR monsters, level slower. Because of this, leveling speed is pretty much inversely related to average encounter difficulty, which I find slightly ironic.
 

l0lzero

First Post
There isn't. Because the XP budget is based on XP calculations for Hard/Deadly/etc, and those calculations include phantom XP multipliers that do not actually get award to the PCs, there is no significant relationship between XP budget and rate of leveling.

Face the "correct" budget exclusively in solo monsters, level faster. Face it in hordes of low CR monsters, level slower. Because of this, leveling speed is pretty much inversely related to average encounter difficulty, which I find slightly ironic.

That's actually why in my rambling post above I suggested to remove the multipliers, and instead add a multiplier for a single monster fight, and it would actually increase the real budget, letting you throw a tougher monster out to give the fight an actual chance of being a challenge. I do worry that you would run into monsters that a party simply couldn't beat being a viable option in a new table, but no table will be perfect, so in the end, as long as it works most of the time, it's good enough for me.
 

Face the "correct" budget exclusively in solo monsters, level faster. Face it in hordes of low CR monsters, level slower. Because of this, leveling speed is pretty much inversely related to average encounter difficulty, which I find slightly ironic.

It also means that you can use random encounters with annoying, low-CR monsters like Giant Rats as a check on the five-minute adventuring day, if you are so inclined. I kind of like that.

I mean, technically those giant rats are still "free XP" towards your next level-up, but the aggravation factor of twelve Diseased Giant Rats is far out of proportion for the XP they are worth, unless you have someone who specializes in killing mobs.
 
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dave2008

Legend
OK - I'm ready to give this a shot!

Here's my two cents:

The guidelines in the DMG assume a base game experience; no multi-classing, no feats, no flanking, rock stock basic rules no variants. Given that assumption, I don't think the DMG guidelines are too far off, math-wise, given the assumption of basically stock PCs whose individual abilities are thematically and mechanically linked. Once you start adding in feats, multi-classing, etc., versatility of individual PCs starts to make a significant impact on how challenging an encounter will be.

I agree, that is why, as noted in an earlier post, that the revised guidelines would be explicit and say this table is designed for a party of 4 composed of 1 fighter, 1 cleric, 1 rogue, and 1 wizard using the basic rules. And then I would have to develop suggestions / guidelines for different sized parties and parties of a different composition.


My point with this blurb is that if you ARE going to retool the encounter building tables, I suggest that you do create different sets which create different guidelines depending on what options you are using in your game.

I've thought about it. 1 table with descriptions on how to modify, or multiple tables with a different set of assumptions. I haven't decided yet, but I was leaning toward one table. I'm starting to rethink that approach.

For these tables, I don't think any multipliers should be used, at all. I think the tables should be derived by determining easy, medium, hard, deadly for an individual character, and then total encounter budget is the sum of individual budgets for each party member.

My reasoning for removing the multipliers is that they are too wary of the action economy of lots of monsters; the assumption is that the monsters will have so many extra actions that you'll overwhelm the PCs, where I don't think that is the case in games that employ options like feats and MC.

But if we make different tables for a different base assumptions, wouldn't the modifiers still apply?

I think the others are right when they suggest the bulk of the separation occurring around level 8, that's when feats and MC really start to affect the game in a significant fashion, but even at 3rd level, my UA RRanger/Sorc was very effective in a variety of combat situations (can melee, range, and lots of skills), so I would suggest starting the separation at a lower level, but with diminished potency, which increases moreso at level 8 and beyond.

I think the revised table does exactly that, but it might be more noticeable at 5th level (fireball).

I think also that you should include verbiage strongly cautioning against using a single enemy,

I intend to.

I guess, really, I should reword my proposal and walk back something I said earlier; there should be a multiplier, and it applies if you absolutely insist upon using a single monster, and it doesn't change the effective encounter XP, but actually increases the XP budget. Say, a 1.5x increase in budget if you are using only a single creature for the encounter.

Could work, to me that seems like 6 in one, a half dozen in the other.

I think if you want this to work in the long run, you'd need to look at the classes and builds, and see at what levels the power tends to jump up for PCs, and adjust the table to allow for greater budget at those levels. WIth casters, it's basically a solid power bump ever odd level, but with your melee it's more like a significant bump every tier, and your utility classes tend to have a solid power creep across all levels. As such, I think I would make my adjustments slightly more pronounced on the odd levels, with a more powerful adjustment every 4th or 5th level, in addition to an overall upwards adjustment.

Yes, ideally that is the type of analysis that should be done. I just don't know that I have the time or knowledge to do that.

If'n I were to undertake this operation, I think I'd quit, so I just want to say grats on keeping up the effort, and good work so far. I'm glad to see how open to suggestion you are, and I hope I didn't waste your time with my semi-coherent rambling.

Thank you! It will be slow and up and down process. I decided to start this while I was taking a break from my Epic Monster Updates and Epic Character Updates and I am now realizing I don't have the time I would like to work on this. I will keep working on it - it will just take longer than I had originally hoped.
 

dave2008

Legend
Sorry for beating on the horse, but


This was very eloquently put.

My suggestion, of course, would be to replace those adjectives so as to not create those expectations. But I don't want to restart the topic; I just needed to share the best way to say it.

I agree, but I think the issue is not the adjective, but the definition provided for the adjective. I do understand that "easy," "hard," etc. have inherent conflicts between the game definition and natural language that cause problems. In this regarding using "minimal challenge," "low challenge," etc. (or something similar) would force more people to become familiar with the definition which would be helpful. However, I just find easy, medium, hard, deadly more evocative. Of course that is part of the problem with using them.

I like them better, I but I am starting to come around to the idea that they should be swapped out. I think I will do a version with revised titles and add the definitions.
 

l0lzero

First Post
OK - I'm ready to give this a shot!

Sorry, I have diarrhea of the mouth ;.;

I agree, that is why, as noted in an earlier post, that the revised guidelines would be explicit and say this table is designed for a party of 4 composed of 1 fighter, 1 cleric, 1 rogue, and 1 wizard using the basic rules. And then I would have to develop suggestions / guidelines for different sized parties and parties of a different composition.

Well see that's just it, I think the encounter table works fine for the basic rules and for stock character options. At low levels you don't have to worry about things like perfect accuracy at 600 feet, bards/sorcs with eldritch blast, any class other than fighter with action surge, and so on. There are a couple of hybrid subclasses, but otherwise the classes tend to stick fairly well to their roles, so without feats or MC, I feel the base encounter table is right. Monsters are tuned for those kinds of PCs, and the challenge they represent is much more accurate; no twinned cure wounds, no quickened action surge EB spam, no pact-smites, etc.

I've thought about it. 1 table with descriptions on how to modify, or multiple tables with a different set of assumptions. I haven't decided yet, but I was leaning toward one table. I'm starting to rethink that approach.

Well, I think you could, largely, get away with a single table, but it would be for MC and Feat games. Consider great weapon master is close to an additional attack in damage (a longsword with 20 str is only going to average 9) from each power swing, a normal monster isn't designed to sustain that kind of damage round to round, but a +2 or 3 or 4 from raging, not such a big deal because it still takes 3 attacks to start approaching the bonus damage from a single power attack from GWM. So your focus should be, I feel, and feel free to do it however you want, on accounting for feats. I think you're spending a lot of time and effort trying to tune for conditions that rarely exist if you stick with basic rules 4 person party setup. Again, do it however you want, but I think you'd be better off looking more towards what an individual character could handle on average, and then the DM can add up the xp budget for each member of the party. Not that you'd create a fighter table or a ranger table, but rather you'd take a stable of characters at various levels with mild optimization and run them individually against a solo, a small group, a medium group, and a large group, to see what kinds of effects it has on that character's ability to survive the fight. I may actually invest the time in doing this, by the by, I'm thinking two fights per tier myself, for a total of 10 test runs across the 20 levels and using average damage from all involved in a specially created arena (no rolling to hit, but rather creatures move and whatnot and when they attack it auto-hits for damage based on hit probability and average damage), but I don't actually expect you to do that, I'm just suggesting how I would (possibly am) go about performing the tests. I, personally, am thinking lore bard, totem barb, life cleric, ek fighter, moon druid, OH monk, ven pally, hunteranger, assassin, dsorc, BS wizard, and feylock (chain for familiar cheese). I just gotta look up the formulas for accounting for crits and how to average damage based on likelihood of a target saving vs an effect like a breath weapon. Again, not putting this all on you, I'm really interested in running these challenge tests now lol. I also think a 4 person party assumption would skew results against 3 or less parties, and probably end up weak against 5 or more parties. But, I'm not a math go, I'm going with intuition as of this moment. I could be entirely wrong for all I know.

But if we make different tables for a different base assumptions, wouldn't the modifiers still apply?

See, I don't think so. The versatility added by feats and MC, as well as the increase in power, largely counter-acts the action economy hit. If you have a party of 4 PCs, and two of them heal, then it's less of a threat to have multiple people getting beaten on. That's what I suggest so heavily against changing the base table for a stock game with no variant rules. In a stock game your healers heal, that's it. I've long advocated for judicious use of the healer feat because over the course of a day it's far more effective than a single healing spell and the resource cost is a mere 5 gp per 10 uses, leaving you slots to attack and deal damage with, letting you heal the party up between fights with things like hit dice and potions to compensate for the lack of direct healing. Feats and MC open up new synergies and abilities that, I feel, more than mitigate the extra actions of more monsters in an encounter. Additionally, the tougher the group of monsters in your horde, the less XP you have to budget. Hordes are best constructed from low CR mobs as their only real purpose is to soak up actions and resources, consider the CR 9 with 13 CR 1 creatures example vs the 4 CR 5 creature example, both use up almost all of the budget, but the tougher group has significantly less monsters. In the latter example of 4 CR 5 as a deadly encounter for a PCL 3 group of 4 characters, that's actually a pretty solid fight right there, because it's a CR 5 vs each 3rd level PC. The multipliers would reduce the number of tougher creatures you could throw in a fight, and so you'd end up with, maybe 2 or 3 monsters with a multiplier based on group size, which would allow for focus fire efficiency and diminished depletion of resources. If you leave the multiplier out, then you can sick a monster on each PC, making focus fire tactics less effective, draining resources better from the party, and I think it would probably fit the definition of deadly because your low AC, low HP players are going to have monsters dedicated to them, specifically, which could quickly result in them being dropped. For instance, I believe gladiator is CR 5? A 3rd level barbarian is going to be able to fight a gladiator and have a fairly good chance of winning, thanks to rage resistance, but a 3rd level wizard, maybe not so much. There's the very real possibility that your wizard is going down, even if you don't gang up on him and you're just sending the one gladiator at him.

I think the revised table does exactly that, but it might be more noticeable at 5th level (fireball).

See, that's the issue is there needs to be a solid understanding of how access to new spell levels is going to affect the damage output and mitigation abilities of a party. A spell like fireball is going to be very effective at inflicting damage, and a spell like wall of stone is going to be good at mitigating it (in the sense that you can block creatures from using their actions to attack you by forcing them to maneuver around the wall), which is why the rate of increase needs to intensify as the levels climb.

I think I'm going to start working on getting those characters drawn up now and then see if I can't find the formulas for calculating the average damage of a spell with a given DC vs a known save bonus (I can't imagine it's too different from the hit% calculations, but I don't know how to account for criticals either, so, yay google!). New semester is about to start, and I'm a procrastinator, so I feel like this is something I can get done soonish in lieu of schoolwork, if you'd be interested in the data I come up with (probably an excel spreadsheet or a formatted text file).

I'm thinking I'm going to run the tests at lvls 1, 3, 5, 8, 11, 14, 17, and 20, with Plvl +2 (solo), = (small group, 2 mobs), -2 (medium group, 4 mobs), and -8 (large group, 16 mobs). I think I'm going to have to look up MC builds too, and run a few of the more extreme combos as their own tests as well, probably pallock, BMbarb, and some kind of rogue MC, assassin shadow monk?

Damn your interesting and timely topic... :p
 

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